Delta Pilots Association
09-21-2010, 09:04 PM
#331
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Just my 2 cents. ALPA has had the non disputed position of representing the majority of the pilots for quite sometime. No questions asked. Most of us feel that National ALPA has become a self serving entity, i truly believe this. I have had good buds elected that were going to kick butt for the pilots all of a sudden only turn into guys worrried about the good of NATIONAL ALPA. Really Xissed me off. It is a self serving organization that I do not believe we can correct but I do believe we can get their attention with this vote. I personally feel that my dues dollars are pretty much wasted. I would much rather waste them on a DELTA only group as at least I would know the bucks were being spent for me and not a regional taking my flyng away. ALPA (national) can not represent 2 groups that are in conflict with each other. you regional guys out there are shooting down the professsion for what you are willing to work for and you know why you went to work for that pay , top get to the big bucks but you are destroying the chance to get there. I sent in my card, shot across the bow. Send in yours because all that will happen is a vote on ALPA or DPA. In the end if it is ALPA they will have to acknowledge that they have a group that is not happy with the curent direction and maybe they will change.
You get what you elect and if you accept what they do, it's your fault, too.
09-21-2010, 09:37 PM
#333
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: bartender
Posts: 295
WHY DO YOU ACCEPT THAT???????? My buds went in to help the PILOTS but ended up being servants to National ALPA. Was that your fault. NO!!!! You elected them to represent you not a National organization. If you want to beat yourself up for trusting someone then go ahead but do not take the blame of someone taking the side against you. Grow a pair and call these weak Dxxk guys out for what they are self serving basxxxards and taking care of National. You put good faith in them and what did they give you. So far a SCREW JOB!!!!
09-21-2010, 09:45 PM
#334
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
WHY DO YOU ACCEPT THAT???????? My buds went in to help the PILOTS but ended up being servants to National ALPA. Was that your fault. NO!!!! You elected them to represent you not a National organization. If you want to beat yourself up for trusting someone then go ahead but do not take the blame of someone taking the side against you. Grow a pair and call these weak Dxxk guys out for what they are self serving basxxxards and taking care of National. You put good faith in them and what did they give you. So far a SCREW JOB!!!!
Last edited by newKnow; 09-21-2010 at 10:02 PM.
09-21-2010, 11:02 PM
#335
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
There is always a possibility of unintended consequences. However, if the majority of pilots feel that they are not being represented adequately by ALPA then the fear of an unintended consequence is not a good reason to keep them around.
The simple fact that so many are so quick to jump on this bandwagon, even without a clear direction given by DPA, should tell you something about the level of discontent amongst some DAL pilots. Hopefully this movement will light a fire under ALPA's ass since showing up at LEC meetings or voicing our concerns in other ways, seems to gain us nothing more than a few "tabled" resolutions.
In this day and age of instantaneous electronic information there is no reason why every DAL pilot cannot be involved in nearly every policy decision. Personally, I would vote for the guy who runs on no platform at all. I simply want my candidate to stand up and say "I will ask you your opinion on an issue and then vote according to what the majority of pilots want." I realize that may be an oversimplification, but I believe that would be something we could all live with, majority rules.
The simple fact that so many are so quick to jump on this bandwagon, even without a clear direction given by DPA, should tell you something about the level of discontent amongst some DAL pilots. Hopefully this movement will light a fire under ALPA's ass since showing up at LEC meetings or voicing our concerns in other ways, seems to gain us nothing more than a few "tabled" resolutions.
In this day and age of instantaneous electronic information there is no reason why every DAL pilot cannot be involved in nearly every policy decision. Personally, I would vote for the guy who runs on no platform at all. I simply want my candidate to stand up and say "I will ask you your opinion on an issue and then vote according to what the majority of pilots want." I realize that may be an oversimplification, but I believe that would be something we could all live with, majority rules.
09-21-2010, 11:04 PM
#336
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Okay, I just went back and looked. It was from a thread on the DALPA Forum. One poster referred to it as a "note from Council 20". Another poster said it was in reference to pilots leaving DPA flyers and stickers in the cockpit. I don't know if that is fact or conjecture on his part. I haven't seen the email so that's all I know. And if "Jack Bauer" shows up in this thread again... please tell him that is REALLY all I know!
09-21-2010, 11:15 PM
#337
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Scoop,
I feel like the 800 pound gorilla in the room is being ignored. In a way that gorilla is us and our past inaction and in another way the gorilla is the CAL/UAL merger negotiations. (400 lbs each
)
Are we as Delta pilots concerned with scope? Hell yeah and we have been for a very long time, no matter what uniform we wore before the merger.
So, the real question is, why is it that the CAL/UAL pilots are making scope a central issue for their merger discussion under the ALPA umbrella and we did not?
Personally, I don't care who represents us. I just want to win. But, no one is explaining to me how DPA would have behaved differently if LM was in charge of it instead of DALPA.
Let me explain. By the way that everyone defends LM around here, I have to assume that he would have been elected leader of DPA, as well as most of the other reps. Right? So, I guess I'll ask in a different way, because no one has answered any of my questions yet. How is a DPA run by LM different than the U/CALPA run by WM and whoever is leading the CAL pilots?
If they are successful in getting rid of the rj's, and I hope they are, to me it will prove that ALPA is not the problem.
Instead of blaming ALPA maybe we need to take a look in the mirror.
New K
I feel like the 800 pound gorilla in the room is being ignored. In a way that gorilla is us and our past inaction and in another way the gorilla is the CAL/UAL merger negotiations. (400 lbs each
) Are we as Delta pilots concerned with scope? Hell yeah and we have been for a very long time, no matter what uniform we wore before the merger.
So, the real question is, why is it that the CAL/UAL pilots are making scope a central issue for their merger discussion under the ALPA umbrella and we did not?
Personally, I don't care who represents us. I just want to win. But, no one is explaining to me how DPA would have behaved differently if LM was in charge of it instead of DALPA.
Let me explain. By the way that everyone defends LM around here, I have to assume that he would have been elected leader of DPA, as well as most of the other reps. Right? So, I guess I'll ask in a different way, because no one has answered any of my questions yet. How is a DPA run by LM different than the U/CALPA run by WM and whoever is leading the CAL pilots?
If they are successful in getting rid of the rj's, and I hope they are, to me it will prove that ALPA is not the problem.
Instead of blaming ALPA maybe we need to take a look in the mirror.
New K
2. ALPA as an organization coddles its incumbents making it very difficult to "clean house". I have no idea how the new organization would work but my hope would be a general membership vote for the chairman/president/leader. Term limits and more tenable language to remove those who stray off course for political or any other reason would be nice to have. Trying to get those kinds of changes implemented within ALPA at this stage of the game is not unlike the little guy going to Washington DC asking Senators and Congressmen to downgrade their perks and pay. That is to say, changing the way decisions are made by those who make the decisions...not going to happen.
3. Transparency, transparency, transparency. Use of the multitude of different electronic formats to LISTEN and communicate. Followed by REPRESENTING what the general membership is asking for. Nothing less. No nonsensical emails justifying going against the grain of what your membership was asking for then framing it as top flight "leadership".
09-22-2010, 03:33 AM
#338
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Jack and others:
All of what you suggest should be tried within ALPA first. That is ALL I am saying. The unintended consequences are what I and others have described. Also what happens if DPA nor ALPA is not the voice you want, what happens then only six month before section six openers are exchanged? Do you really desire that power struggle before this period of time? I know I do not.
I know guys that you talk about and the reason for the big change is simple. Knowledge and education. Their goal to support National as best I can tell is all of a sudden instead of sitting in our cheap seats they get read in on their Local as well as the National initiatives and all of the surrounding data. I do not see it as a support of a bloated bureaucracy as much as I see it as a need for a medium that only a organization the size of ALPA National can give.
I also suggest that the DPA or any other organization get a quote from ALPA for all of the support services that we get with our dues dollars. Ask AAI what they were paying for these services. Ask ALPA what they charge for other airlines to use these services, and then tell me how much cheaper a stand a lone infrastructure will be. These are questions that must be answered.
Lets turn this the other way for a second: What would you suggest ALPA National and DALPA do to regain your support? I want a list of ideas from by-law changes to general policy changes to perception changes. Rank them as well. I have my list, but I want to see what you want, not what I want.
Lets have the necessary dialogue.
All of what you suggest should be tried within ALPA first. That is ALL I am saying. The unintended consequences are what I and others have described. Also what happens if DPA nor ALPA is not the voice you want, what happens then only six month before section six openers are exchanged? Do you really desire that power struggle before this period of time? I know I do not.
I know guys that you talk about and the reason for the big change is simple. Knowledge and education. Their goal to support National as best I can tell is all of a sudden instead of sitting in our cheap seats they get read in on their Local as well as the National initiatives and all of the surrounding data. I do not see it as a support of a bloated bureaucracy as much as I see it as a need for a medium that only a organization the size of ALPA National can give.
I also suggest that the DPA or any other organization get a quote from ALPA for all of the support services that we get with our dues dollars. Ask AAI what they were paying for these services. Ask ALPA what they charge for other airlines to use these services, and then tell me how much cheaper a stand a lone infrastructure will be. These are questions that must be answered.
Lets turn this the other way for a second: What would you suggest ALPA National and DALPA do to regain your support? I want a list of ideas from by-law changes to general policy changes to perception changes. Rank them as well. I have my list, but I want to see what you want, not what I want.
Lets have the necessary dialogue.
09-22-2010, 04:23 AM
#339
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Scoop,
I feel like the 800 pound gorilla in the room is being ignored. In a way that gorilla is us and our past inaction and in another way the gorilla is the CAL/UAL merger negotiations. (400 lbs each)
Are we as Delta pilots concerned with scope? Hell yeah and we have been for a very long time, no matter what uniform we wore before the merger.
So, the real question is, why is it that the CAL/UAL pilots are making scope a central issue for their merger discussion under the ALPA umbrella and we did not?
Personally, I don't care who represents us. I just want to win. But, no one is explaining to me how DPA would have behaved differently if LM was in charge of it instead of DALPA.
Let me explain. By the way that everyone defends LM around here, I have to assume that he would have been elected leader of DPA, as well as most of the other reps. Right? So, I guess I'll ask in a different way, because no one has answered any of my questions yet. How is a DPA run by LM different than the U/CALPA run by WM and whoever is leading the CAL pilots?
If they are successful in getting rid of the rj's, and I hope they are, to me it will prove that ALPA is not the problem.
Instead of blaming ALPA maybe we need to take a look in the mirror.
New K
I feel like the 800 pound gorilla in the room is being ignored. In a way that gorilla is us and our past inaction and in another way the gorilla is the CAL/UAL merger negotiations. (400 lbs each
) Are we as Delta pilots concerned with scope? Hell yeah and we have been for a very long time, no matter what uniform we wore before the merger.
So, the real question is, why is it that the CAL/UAL pilots are making scope a central issue for their merger discussion under the ALPA umbrella and we did not?
Personally, I don't care who represents us. I just want to win. But, no one is explaining to me how DPA would have behaved differently if LM was in charge of it instead of DALPA.
Let me explain. By the way that everyone defends LM around here, I have to assume that he would have been elected leader of DPA, as well as most of the other reps. Right? So, I guess I'll ask in a different way, because no one has answered any of my questions yet. How is a DPA run by LM different than the U/CALPA run by WM and whoever is leading the CAL pilots?
If they are successful in getting rid of the rj's, and I hope they are, to me it will prove that ALPA is not the problem.
Instead of blaming ALPA maybe we need to take a look in the mirror.
New K
The issue is not DALPA.. it is ALPA.. as in national. They are the bloated fat slop eating pig that has muscled everyone else out of the trough. I personally have little problem with DALPA.. its National that is the problem.
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