Jabberwock

Carl,

You are typical of the very senior NWA pilot who never knew anything close to C2K rates.

Who is the "we're" you are talking about? Got a mouse in your pocket? The DPA? Where's your leverage, Carl?

Pilots in your generation scare me. They outsourced half the airline with the hope of selling coworkers' jobs for a marginal pay increase. After wrecking our union through the destruction of unity, they want to abandon the mess they created, taking no responsibility.

The difference between us is, I'll be here. You wont. Much wider viewpoint with a much longer horizon. Smart enough to know it isn't just about "me." To restore our contract, we to first get leverage.

P.S. Nothing personal and I apologize for the jab on the nose. When throwing a roundhouse insult you dropped your guard and the shot was taken.

satchip

hear hear!

satchip

Thanks for taking the shot, Jab. Since he is on the ignore list I appreciate you answering his bombastic BS for me.

acl65pilot

You have a good point, and I do beleive that what the current Association on property is trying to do is level gains out across the 12,000 pilots.

Scope is very important, and even in the revered C2K, there were material changes to SJS in it. Everything has a cost.

As for your posts about backpedaling Carl, Not one bit. C2K rates may happen, may not, may be too little. Like I keep typing and you keep ignoring it is too early to put that hourly demand out there. I have told you that if UCAL and AMR are still at it, C2K rate and cost restoration even without inflation will be very hard to achieve. It is about costs to the company and about yesteryear to the pilots.

The profession has to right itself around, but what PG's graph shows you is a line, that C2K went way above. Well that "correction" above was met with a drastic correction in the other direction.

Whatever the gains made in a mid term contract improvement, extension, or C2012 are, they need to be be able to be sustainable, and for more than the next 11 years or so that you may be on property. I also think that no matter what the initial raise is on this next PWA, the rates will be close to C2K sometime in the effective dates of this agreement. That can be done, with a modest raise of 20% and 5,5,5,5. That would put a whale capt at 328 an hr on the amendable date of the agreement.
225 x 20% = 270 an hr day one.
270 x 5% = 283.50
283.50 x 5 = 297.68
297.68 x 5 = 312.56
312.56 X 5 = 328.19

The above is to illustruate to you that even a small raise and a four year agreement gets you to those raise. This rate would apply Jan 1, 2017 the first day that this sucker is amendable if we did it this way. Start with a 25% or more raise and it looks even better. Point is that there are many ways to get to this point. You want to do it day one, which I do beleive will take at least five years to get. Doing it this way gets you to that point on or about the same day that you would be back at the table going for another 20, 5,5,5,5.
Most pilots see that the option that your are spitting on offers more money to them and their families over the long term, if you cannot get 100% retro. That little point has been discussed in others posts.

Your pension is frozen, not terminated. If I were you, I would be worried about this company going back in to CH11 and that sucker going the way the other DAL pilots pensions went. I am a little surprised that you do not mention that. Get costs so out of whack that this airline cannot compete with its competitors like the last cycle, that that will happen. Call it managing you expectations if you will, but it is not that, it is more about trying to get pilots to no repeat history despite themselves.

Jaberwock is correct, Scope is very important. All of it. We will be tested on International Scope going forward, and that language is more important that anything else. Pay means nothing if you cannot back it up.

DAL 88 Driver

Inaccurate analysis, IMO. As you state, C2k went above the declining line and was in effect a correction. However, the "drastic correction in the other direction" was not a reaction to C2K or a direct result of it. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity via one of the darkest times in our industry for an unethical management to take advantage of the situation and attempt to permanently reset the value of our profession at a much, much lower level. So far, their plan appears to be working quite well, with pilots like yourself expressing support for it.

johnso29

You can bet LM will be going after Quantas, Emirates, & the likes when it comes to this. He will be targeting them from his national position.

Bucking Bar

I'd love to see Emirates join us and raise rates. Maybe we can teach Quantas too:

satchip

You guys got took on C2K. The suits saw you coming and offered you huge raises for work rule concessions and scope language. They saw the recession coming and had CH11 in their sights. 9/11 only accelerated the decline in the economy and moved up the plans. They knew they could get the pay back but the rules and scope were gone forever.

For someone who rails against evil management and gives them omnipotent powers to screw with you I'm surprised you don't see that.

Carl Spackler

Your ignorance of history is telling. The NWA contract was signed in 98 after our strike and gave us a peak rate of about 280. The Delta contract was signed three years later with peak rates of 319.

See above.

Leverage comes from a unified pilot group willing to strike for an industry leading contract for the pilots of the world's largest airline. You wouldn't be part of that obviously.

We shouldn't. We were the ones (and those who preceded us) that fought the battles that got us the meager gains that we have. You are the spoiled children who bite the parents hand.

Truly ignorant post made by someone who wasn't even here at the time. You were probably making your strongest case to the RJ airline interviewer as to why you should be hired to fly at food stamp wages.

I'll be here another decade IF I don't get furloughed. You may be furloughed and NEVER be recalled. Enjoy that long horizon of yours ace.

Ignorant and incorrect posts aren't jabs at the nose. You give yourself far too much import.

Carl

johnso29

I wish so many people weren't stuck on C2K. Our contract needs way more then better pay rates to improve. C2K rates plus 30% alone does jack squat for our contract. How about reserve rules, reserve rigs vs. lineholder rigs, trip drop when it touches vacation, a complete re-write of 23G & 23K, & higher defined contributions just to name a few.

C2K payrates are meaningless by themselves.