Delta Pilots Association
12-05-2010, 08:10 PM
#3291
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
It's not that difficult of a question. $5,000 per hour for a DC-9 FO on reserve at 70 hours per month puts him at $350,000 per month and $4.2 million per year.
We wouldn't be justified in asking for that much because historically pilots wages have never commanded that amount of buying power and and it would be an exponential jump over what we have had in the past.
In essence, I've always heard that back in the 1970's a captain could buy a car with one months check. I've never heard that his first officer could buy a house/mansion with one months check.
As professionals, we should always move our pay and benefits forward, not backwards.
To run a counter to your argument, maybe you could explain to us why $50 per hour for a B-747-400 captain would be too low of a pay rate in your mind?
If we cut to the chase and eliminate the extreme examples, it comes down to the historical buying power of us, as pilots. Our buying power has been severely cut over the decades, especially this last one.
Now if you want to explain to me why we should accept this decrease in buying power, that's the discussion I'll be looking forward to.
New K Now
12-05-2010, 08:19 PM
#3292
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Just out of curiousity, what was the standard of living that you expected when you got into this career in the first place. Which was your first major airline and what did they pay? Was it C2K? Was C2K industry leading or industry standard? In your experience negotiating contracts, when are economic goals announced? If UAL had announced there 2000 contract goals in 1998, would they have been less than what they announced after the Delta dot or more than? Just curious.
I like to ask questions when I post, but man, you take the prize. You ask 6 scattered questions in rapid fire, then complain that the poster didn't answer them with a book. Furthermore, you ignore a poster (Nu guy) who goes out of his way to answer some of your questions. Seems like maybe you weren't really looking for answers? Maybe, I'm just sayin'.....
12-05-2010, 08:30 PM
#3293
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
1. Yep, a fifth year guy can make well over six figures. I'm a third year guy and I could If I were a line holder. 2009 notwithstanding as everyone's W2 took a hit due to the slowdown.
2. In today's day and age that's a pipe dream. Heck I get Mil Ret health care and my costs aren't zero.
3. Emotional response.
4. 11% CONTRIBUTION is pretty darn good. Ask your civilian buddies what their 401k match is, much less contribution.
5. No question, that one sucks for you guys who were expecting that. From my perspective, however, I'm better off without it.
6. You can still retire at 60. The loss of the DB ironically affords you that opportunity.
7 & 8. More emotional responses. If #7 were such a big deal, you should have started your own business, not become an employee. #8 is just more of the usual hyperbole and invective that emanates from you.
I'd say you were doing ok by your own standards. I know I am.
2. In today's day and age that's a pipe dream. Heck I get Mil Ret health care and my costs aren't zero.
3. Emotional response.
4. 11% CONTRIBUTION is pretty darn good. Ask your civilian buddies what their 401k match is, much less contribution.
5. No question, that one sucks for you guys who were expecting that. From my perspective, however, I'm better off without it.
6. You can still retire at 60. The loss of the DB ironically affords you that opportunity.
7 & 8. More emotional responses. If #7 were such a big deal, you should have started your own business, not become an employee. #8 is just more of the usual hyperbole and invective that emanates from you.
I'd say you were doing ok by your own standards. I know I am.
Satch,
A lot of your responses to this topic involve how things effect you as an individual. (Job protection, insurance, pensions, etc.) Is there anything you want to do for the profession as a whole?
If you had a grandson or granddaughter who wanted to become a pilot, what exactly would you want to leave behind for them?
Do you want a: "Thanks granddad.
." OR
DO you want a: "Thanks granddad.
."
Last edited by newKnow; 12-05-2010 at 08:55 PM.
12-05-2010, 08:45 PM
#3294
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Hey there are places we can improve this contract.
I would like to see a DC that matches Hawaiian's. Go look theirs up on this site. Lots of room for improvement.
Carl, I will say this. Depending on what happens in the next few months, 42% may be way to low. If the figure is correct, we are only talking rates, DAL88 is talking buying power, and that is what I have been extrapolating out these past months.
42% at 18 million a percentage point is in the range of 756million-787.5 million. (DAL c2k Rates, not buying power)
Add some minor work rule, and DC changes, and you get to the one billion dollar figure Sailing used.
I would like to see a DC that matches Hawaiian's. Go look theirs up on this site. Lots of room for improvement.
Carl, I will say this. Depending on what happens in the next few months, 42% may be way to low. If the figure is correct, we are only talking rates, DAL88 is talking buying power, and that is what I have been extrapolating out these past months.
42% at 18 million a percentage point is in the range of 756million-787.5 million. (DAL c2k Rates, not buying power)
Add some minor work rule, and DC changes, and you get to the one billion dollar figure Sailing used.
12-05-2010, 10:43 PM
#3295
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
12-05-2010, 10:54 PM
#3296
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Satch,
A lot of your responses to this topic involve how things effect you as an individual. (Job protection, insurance, pensions, etc.) Is there anything you want to do for the profession as a whole?
If you had a grandson or granddaughter who wanted to become a pilot, what exactly would you want to leave behind for them?
Do you want a: "Thanks granddad.."
OR
DO you want a: "Thanks granddad.."
A lot of your responses to this topic involve how things effect you as an individual. (Job protection, insurance, pensions, etc.) Is there anything you want to do for the profession as a whole?
If you had a grandson or granddaughter who wanted to become a pilot, what exactly would you want to leave behind for them?
Do you want a: "Thanks granddad.
." OR
DO you want a: "Thanks granddad.
."Carl
12-05-2010, 11:44 PM
#3297
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,704
OK, I am confused. Do you want a restoration contract or just a pay restoration contract. Huge difference in costs!
12-06-2010, 12:39 AM
#3298
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Carl;
Restoration as I and many others understand it is to include inflation. I came up with a 64% raise and DAL 88 came up with a 71% raise for that.
With each percentage point in raise being worth about 18-18.75 million you do the math.
Purely a contract that get to C2K rates is not restoration. It was only part of the whole deal.
Restoration as I and many others understand it is to include inflation. I came up with a 64% raise and DAL 88 came up with a 71% raise for that.
With each percentage point in raise being worth about 18-18.75 million you do the math.
Purely a contract that get to C2K rates is not restoration. It was only part of the whole deal.
12-06-2010, 04:15 AM
#3299
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Satch,
A lot of your responses to this topic involve how things effect you as an individual. (Job protection, insurance, pensions, etc.) Is there anything you want to do for the profession as a whole?
If you had a grandson or granddaughter who wanted to become a pilot, what exactly would you want to leave behind for them?
Do you want a: "Thanks granddad.."
OR
DO you want a: "Thanks granddad.."
A lot of your responses to this topic involve how things effect you as an individual. (Job protection, insurance, pensions, etc.) Is there anything you want to do for the profession as a whole?
If you had a grandson or granddaughter who wanted to become a pilot, what exactly would you want to leave behind for them?
Do you want a: "Thanks granddad.
." OR
DO you want a: "Thanks granddad.
."
) enumerated expectations. I used current experience to show that for the most part, his expectations have been met. The others, I believe, are either unreasonable, like health care, or emotional political statements masquerading as expectations.As for what I want for the profession as a whole, I am with Bar. Unity. Only by unifying all the disparate pilot groups flying Delta passengers, we are at the mercy of lower cost providers.
12-06-2010, 04:39 AM
#3300
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Alfa,
It's not that difficult of a question. $5,000 per hour for a DC-9 FO on reserve at 70 hours per month puts him at $350,000 per month and $4.2 million per year.
We wouldn't be justified in asking for that much because historically pilots wages have never commanded that amount of buying power and and it would be an exponential jump over what we have had in the past.
In essence, I've always heard that back in the 1970's a captain could buy a car with one months check. I've never heard that his first officer could buy a house/mansion with one months check.
As professionals, we should always move our pay and benefits forward, not backwards.
To run a counter to your argument, maybe you could explain to us why $50 per hour for a B-747-400 captain would be too low of a pay rate in your mind?
If we cut to the chase and eliminate the extreme examples, it comes down to the historical buying power of us, as pilots. Our buying power has been severely cut over the decades, especially this last one.
Now if you want to explain to me why we should accept this decrease in buying power, that's the discussion I'll be looking forward to.
New K Now
It's not that difficult of a question. $5,000 per hour for a DC-9 FO on reserve at 70 hours per month puts him at $350,000 per month and $4.2 million per year.
We wouldn't be justified in asking for that much because historically pilots wages have never commanded that amount of buying power and and it would be an exponential jump over what we have had in the past.
In essence, I've always heard that back in the 1970's a captain could buy a car with one months check. I've never heard that his first officer could buy a house/mansion with one months check.
As professionals, we should always move our pay and benefits forward, not backwards.
To run a counter to your argument, maybe you could explain to us why $50 per hour for a B-747-400 captain would be too low of a pay rate in your mind?
If we cut to the chase and eliminate the extreme examples, it comes down to the historical buying power of us, as pilots. Our buying power has been severely cut over the decades, especially this last one.
Now if you want to explain to me why we should accept this decrease in buying power, that's the discussion I'll be looking forward to.
New K Now
George Will likes to use the analogy of the buggy whip makers when talking about the labor market. I'm sure those guys once commanded a high price in the market but where are they now?
The market is shaped by millions of forces, Adam Smith's invisible hand theory. We as individuals have very little effect on it. We, as a unified group with political clout, can affect the market on the margins. That' where ALPA proves its value. The new ATP requirements have the potential to shape the market in our favor in the short term. Unfortunately, as I have previously stated, the long term trends are not in our favor. Grasping at the straws of the past, I fear, can only accelerate our demise.
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