newKnow

Alfa,

It's not that difficult of a question. $5,000 per hour for a DC-9 FO on reserve at 70 hours per month puts him at $350,000 per month and $4.2 million per year.

We wouldn't be justified in asking for that much because historically pilots wages have never commanded that amount of buying power and and it would be an exponential jump over what we have had in the past.

In essence, I've always heard that back in the 1970's a captain could buy a car with one months check. I've never heard that his first officer could buy a house/mansion with one months check.

As professionals, we should always move our pay and benefits forward, not backwards.

To run a counter to your argument, maybe you could explain to us why $50 per hour for a B-747-400 captain would be too low of a pay rate in your mind?


If we cut to the chase and eliminate the extreme examples, it comes down to the historical buying power of us, as pilots. Our buying power has been severely cut over the decades, especially this last one.

Now if you want to explain to me why we should accept this decrease in buying power, that's the discussion I'll be looking forward to.


New K Now

newKnow

Reroute,

I like to ask questions when I post, but man, you take the prize. You ask 6 scattered questions in rapid fire, then complain that the poster didn't answer them with a book. Furthermore, you ignore a poster (Nu guy) who goes out of his way to answer some of your questions. Seems like maybe you weren't really looking for answers? Maybe, I'm just sayin'.....

newKnow

Satch,


A lot of your responses to this topic involve how things effect you as an individual. (Job protection, insurance, pensions, etc.) Is there anything you want to do for the profession as a whole?

If you had a grandson or granddaughter who wanted to become a pilot, what exactly would you want to leave behind for them?

Do you want a: "Thanks granddad. ."

OR

DO you want a: "Thanks granddad. ."

acl65pilot

Hey there are places we can improve this contract.

I would like to see a DC that matches Hawaiian's. Go look theirs up on this site. Lots of room for improvement.

Carl, I will say this. Depending on what happens in the next few months, 42% may be way to low. If the figure is correct, we are only talking rates, DAL88 is talking buying power, and that is what I have been extrapolating out these past months.

42% at 18 million a percentage point is in the range of 756million-787.5 million. (DAL c2k Rates, not buying power)
Add some minor work rule, and DC changes, and you get to the one billion dollar figure Sailing used.

Carl Spackler

Exactly correct. And we also don't need people making up numbers in the multi-billions of dollars for pay restoration when we know it's about 800 million.

Carl

Carl Spackler

Really great way to put it NewK. Excellent post.

Carl

sailingfun

OK, I am confused. Do you want a restoration contract or just a pay restoration contract. Huge difference in costs!

acl65pilot

Carl;
Restoration as I and many others understand it is to include inflation. I came up with a 64% raise and DAL 88 came up with a 71% raise for that.

With each percentage point in raise being worth about 18-18.75 million you do the math.

Purely a contract that get to C2K rates is not restoration. It was only part of the whole deal.

satchip

New, I was just responding to Nu's (you guys confuse me sometimes) enumerated expectations. I used current experience to show that for the most part, his expectations have been met. The others, I believe, are either unreasonable, like health care, or emotional political statements masquerading as expectations.

As for what I want for the profession as a whole, I am with Bar. Unity. Only by unifying all the disparate pilot groups flying Delta passengers, we are at the mercy of lower cost providers.

satchip

I'll take a shot at it. The bold parts show you committing a major philosophical fallacy. Historical buying power has absolutely zero relevance to today's conditions. What we earn and what we can negotiate for are solely determined by the marketplace. Those conditions change, sometimes temporarily sometimes permanently. What we commanded in the market back in the 70s, while nice for nostalgic reasons, you can't take that to the negotiating table.

George Will likes to use the analogy of the buggy whip makers when talking about the labor market. I'm sure those guys once commanded a high price in the market but where are they now?

The market is shaped by millions of forces, Adam Smith's invisible hand theory. We as individuals have very little effect on it. We, as a unified group with political clout, can affect the market on the margins. That' where ALPA proves its value. The new ATP requirements have the potential to shape the market in our favor in the short term. Unfortunately, as I have previously stated, the long term trends are not in our favor. Grasping at the straws of the past, I fear, can only accelerate our demise.