Carl Spackler

You might be right capn, but I can't help hoping that actual facts will eventually win out over BS and made up figures. We had people talk about C2K restoration being great but the company can't afford 2 billion. Then 3 billion, then 4 billion. I'm waiting for the figure to climb to 10 billion!

I might be wasting my time, but I want to slowly find out exactly how much restoration to C2K will actually cost Delta. Then and ONLY then can we make a fact based decision and not one based on the latest made up figure. What I know now is that it will cost Delta 800 million extra dollars on day one of a new contract to restore our pay rates to the C2K peak at Delta.

Carl

DAL 88 Driver

I would say that if you want to make that kind of money, you need to work REALLY HARD on your football skills... or maybe get your MBA and climb the corporate ladder all the way to the top in management. But for most of us... we signed up to be airline pilots. I think all most of us want is to get back to the standard of living that we reasonably expected this career to provide when we got into it in the first place. That's not going to take $5,000 per hour for a DC9B, but it is going to take some pretty large increases to our current bankruptcy/emergency pay rates. It's not rocket science to figure out what kind of percentage that might take. And it's also not rocket science to figure out that we aren't going to get anything approaching what we need if we keep making every excuse in the book as to why it can't happen.

Reroute

Just out of curiousity, what was the standard of living that you expected when you got into this career in the first place. Which was your first major airline and what did they pay? Was it C2K? Was C2K industry leading or industry standard? In your experience negotiating contracts, when are economic goals announced? If UAL had announced there 2000 contract goals in 1998, would they have been less than what they announced after the Delta dot or more than? Just curious.

NuGuy

1) I expected to make six figures within 5 years

2) I expected my health care insurance cost to be zero

3) I expected to work weekends and holidays, but with that said, I had an expectation not to be molested at home on my days off without hiding behind (or paying for) extraneous telecommunication devices or services.

4) I expected some extra cash be put into my 401(k)

5) I expected a fully funded DB plan waiting for me at retirement

6) I expected that retirement to occur at age 60

7) I expected that the primary concern of the certificate holder, in whose employ I was in, to be the direct execution of air transportation, and not a shell corporation whose goal was to only act as a ticket clearing house.

8) I expected my union representation to represent the employment and employment conditions of my pilot group as it's primary concern, and not to feed the maw of another multi-million dollar corporation attempting to aid my employer with #6.

Now some of these conditions have been satisfied, and some have not, and some are in progress. I'll leave it up to the reader to figure out which is which. Any questions?

Nu

DAL 88 Driver

I expected a standard of living consistent with what had been established for decades for airline pilots flying for the largest major airlines. I had no doubt that, through hard work and perseverance, I could achieve my goal of flying for one of these carriers. It doesn't matter where any of us started or what they paid. The overall career is what matters, and I don't think it would have been reasonable for any of us to think that standard of living would be cut by about HALF. If you look at C2K, it could be said that it was simply a correction to a slow, downward trend in buying power that had been going on since deregulation. While C2K was technically the highest pay in the industry, it was only slightly above United and not all that much above AA. The lifestyle it provided was well within the range of "industry standard." I would certainly hope that no one representing Delta pilots would be advocating that this standard should be drastically and permanently lowered.

In 1998, UAL wasn't digging out of a ~50% hole. You simply cannot compare a traditional contract negotiation during normal times to a recovery from an unprecedented, massively devastated contract negotiated under extreme duress in bankruptcy. We are in uncharted waters... so any "experience negotiating contracts" is pretty much worthless in this situation, IMO. To make up the kind of lost ground we need to make up and get this profession back on track, it's going to take some bold, visionary leadership and absolute resolve. That sort of thing doesn't begin overnight when you're already to the start of a "section 6" negotiation. You have to lay the groundwork first by establishing your objective and getting everyone onboard and unified around that objective. This is basic management/leadership 101 stuff. And if you wait to do this until we get into section 6, I think we are almost certainly doomed to fail. Even worse, if you continue to make every excuse in the book for why this supposedly cannot happen, then not only are we doomed to fail, but I have to question whether this is even your objective in the first place.

alfaromeo

Well you didn't answer the question. If $5,000 is too high, then why is it too high? You can skip the attacks if you like, I am trying to have a real discussion, and the emotionalism just gets in the way.

Reroute

Thanks for the non answer 88.

DAL 88 Driver

As far as I'm concerned, I answered your question (Reroute's too). But carry on with your "real discussion", as I think I'm too emotional to continue!

DAL 88 Driver

You're welcome!

satchip

1. Yep, a fifth year guy can make well over six figures. I'm a third year guy and I could If I were a line holder. 2009 notwithstanding as everyone's W2 took a hit due to the slowdown.

2. In today's day and age that's a pipe dream. Heck I get Mil Ret health care and my costs aren't zero.

3. Emotional response.

4. 11% CONTRIBUTION is pretty darn good. Ask your civilian buddies what their 401k match is, much less contribution.

5. No question, that one sucks for you guys who were expecting that. From my perspective, however, I'm better off without it.

6. You can still retire at 60. The loss of the DB ironically affords you that opportunity.

7 & 8. More emotional responses. If #7 were such a big deal, you should have started your own business, not become an employee. #8 is just more of the usual hyperbole and invective that emanates from you.

I'd say you were doing ok by your own standards. I know I am.