Delta Pilots Association
12-05-2010, 11:23 AM
#3271
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I know what I am positing, and I am saying that restoration of C2K rates on day one of a PWA is a lot of money. I posted the figures above because there seems to be some disparity between what Carl wants as restoration and what DAL88 wants as restoration. Carl's figures are based upon the old NWA rates, not the DAL C2K rates. They are not adjusted for inflation, but they are in the 35% range. That is a heck of a lot different than a 71% bump.
Everyone would like to see a bump like that. We are also saying that with each action their is an equal an opposite reaction. Choose the door you want, but be educated before you do. That is all.
After Carl posted a figure I realized that we have been going back and forth over what we see "Restoration" as. It is a different figured completely. Carl sounds down right pragmatic to me
In reality there is a poll going on though tomorrow and if you are called answer the questions honestly. Your union needs to know what direction, the pilots want to take.
My personal guess is that it will have to be near Carl's figure for guys to sign off on it. Just a guess, based upon all of the talks I have been having with everyone I have flown with.
I have not had one guy tell me they would do vote for a 15% bump. Might not be the majority but it is what the Captain's and other FO's are telling me.
Everyone would like to see a bump like that. We are also saying that with each action their is an equal an opposite reaction. Choose the door you want, but be educated before you do. That is all.
After Carl posted a figure I realized that we have been going back and forth over what we see "Restoration" as. It is a different figured completely. Carl sounds down right pragmatic to me
In reality there is a poll going on though tomorrow and if you are called answer the questions honestly. Your union needs to know what direction, the pilots want to take.
My personal guess is that it will have to be near Carl's figure for guys to sign off on it. Just a guess, based upon all of the talks I have been having with everyone I have flown with.
I have not had one guy tell me they would do vote for a 15% bump. Might not be the majority but it is what the Captain's and other FO's are telling me.
12-05-2010, 11:30 AM
#3272
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
1) What is the minimum pay increase you would be willing to accept?
2) Do you think the reserve system is acceptable in it's present form?
2a) Would you accept half the percentage rate you answered in question 1 if was the only way we could get a better reserve system?
2b) How many additional seats would you be willing to allow into DCI if we could obtain the rate in question 1?
2c) Would you be willing to give up alpa national in order to get the rates in question 1?
3) How disappointed will you be when you don't get the rate in question 1?
12-05-2010, 12:05 PM
#3273
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Are the questions asked like this:
1) What is the minimum pay increase you would be willing to accept?
2) Do you think the reserve system is acceptable in it's present form?
2a) Would you accept half the percentage rate you answered in question 1 if was the only way we could get a better reserve system?
2b) How many additional seats would you be willing to allow into DCI if we could obtain the rate in question 1?
2c) Would you be willing to give up alpa national in order to get the rates in question 1?
3) How disappointed will you be when you don't get the rate in question 1?
1) What is the minimum pay increase you would be willing to accept?
2) Do you think the reserve system is acceptable in it's present form?
2a) Would you accept half the percentage rate you answered in question 1 if was the only way we could get a better reserve system?
2b) How many additional seats would you be willing to allow into DCI if we could obtain the rate in question 1?
2c) Would you be willing to give up alpa national in order to get the rates in question 1?
3) How disappointed will you be when you don't get the rate in question 1?
No idea. I did not know it was being conducted until the Code-a-phone stated that there were calls going out.
12-05-2010, 12:51 PM
#3274
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
12-05-2010, 01:42 PM
#3276
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Captain Jack
Posts: 1,003
Some of you guys have really great info on here and some real good insider stuff. While talking about our contract coming up and our approach I am starting to wonder who some of you are and what side you are on. This kumbaya bs with management and the company is starting to smell.
12-05-2010, 01:56 PM
#3277
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
That is what I don't get.
Why are people like ACL65, Alfaromeo, sailingfun, slowplay, Pineapple guy, etc fighting so hard to lower expectations? There is no real incentive to tell the rest of us that "little bites" is the way to success.
When a guy comes on here and fights for restoration, I understand. They want the best they can get. When a guy comes on here and tells us a small percentage is plenty, I begin to wonder.
What is ones motivations to shoot low and try and lower everyone elses expectation? Suspect at best.
I have been on this board almost since it's inception and over that time I gained a lot of respect for the folks on here. Unfortunately, when I see someone tow a line and argue the unarguable, I lose respect.
This thread has certainly shown who are real Delta pilots and who are management pilots.
I have given up. Those on here that lower expectations are the same folks on the inside of ALPA. It's clear to me that no matter how much we argue, they will stay the course.
The only hope I have at this point is well beyond contract 2012. It's clear where where the ALPA folks are taking that ball. The hope lies in the reality that if they choose to "take a small bite", it will actually prove to those on the fence that ALPA has run it's course and is done.
That is the best I can hope for judging from the comments of those on the inside.
Why are people like ACL65, Alfaromeo, sailingfun, slowplay, Pineapple guy, etc fighting so hard to lower expectations? There is no real incentive to tell the rest of us that "little bites" is the way to success.
When a guy comes on here and fights for restoration, I understand. They want the best they can get. When a guy comes on here and tells us a small percentage is plenty, I begin to wonder.
What is ones motivations to shoot low and try and lower everyone elses expectation? Suspect at best.
I have been on this board almost since it's inception and over that time I gained a lot of respect for the folks on here. Unfortunately, when I see someone tow a line and argue the unarguable, I lose respect.
This thread has certainly shown who are real Delta pilots and who are management pilots.
I have given up. Those on here that lower expectations are the same folks on the inside of ALPA. It's clear to me that no matter how much we argue, they will stay the course.
The only hope I have at this point is well beyond contract 2012. It's clear where where the ALPA folks are taking that ball. The hope lies in the reality that if they choose to "take a small bite", it will actually prove to those on the fence that ALPA has run it's course and is done.
That is the best I can hope for judging from the comments of those on the inside.
and the key word "management" or serious "wannabes"
12-05-2010, 02:06 PM
#3278
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
That is what I don't get.
Why are people like ACL65, Alfaromeo, sailingfun, slowplay, Pineapple guy, etc fighting so hard to lower expectations? There is no real incentive to tell the rest of us that "little bites" is the way to success.
When a guy comes on here and fights for restoration, I understand. They want the best they can get. When a guy comes on here and tells us a small percentage is plenty, I begin to wonder.
What is ones motivations to shoot low and try and lower everyone elses expectation? Suspect at best.
I have been on this board almost since it's inception and over that time I gained a lot of respect for the folks on here. Unfortunately, when I see someone tow a line and argue the unarguable, I lose respect.
This thread has certainly shown who are real Delta pilots and who are management pilots.
I have given up. Those on here that lower expectations are the same folks on the inside of ALPA. It's clear to me that no matter how much we argue, they will stay the course.
The only hope I have at this point is well beyond contract 2012. It's clear where where the ALPA folks are taking that ball. The hope lies in the reality that if they choose to "take a small bite", it will actually prove to those on the fence that ALPA has run it's course and is done.
That is the best I can hope for judging from the comments of those on the inside.
Why are people like ACL65, Alfaromeo, sailingfun, slowplay, Pineapple guy, etc fighting so hard to lower expectations? There is no real incentive to tell the rest of us that "little bites" is the way to success.
When a guy comes on here and fights for restoration, I understand. They want the best they can get. When a guy comes on here and tells us a small percentage is plenty, I begin to wonder.
What is ones motivations to shoot low and try and lower everyone elses expectation? Suspect at best.
I have been on this board almost since it's inception and over that time I gained a lot of respect for the folks on here. Unfortunately, when I see someone tow a line and argue the unarguable, I lose respect.
This thread has certainly shown who are real Delta pilots and who are management pilots.
I have given up. Those on here that lower expectations are the same folks on the inside of ALPA. It's clear to me that no matter how much we argue, they will stay the course.
The only hope I have at this point is well beyond contract 2012. It's clear where where the ALPA folks are taking that ball. The hope lies in the reality that if they choose to "take a small bite", it will actually prove to those on the fence that ALPA has run it's course and is done.
That is the best I can hope for judging from the comments of those on the inside.
12-05-2010, 02:08 PM
#3279
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Not so fast. Here are the actual numbers from a couple of representative aircraft:
MD-88 -
C2K rate (5/1/04): $237.37
Current contract rate: (1/1/12): $167.68
To restore the current contract 2012 rate to the C2K rate without inflation - 42% increase required.
To restore the current contract 2012 rate to the C2K rate adjusted for inflation ($286.78) - 71% increase required.
(source used to calculate inflation: Tom's Inflation Calculator)
B-767 -
C2K rate (5/1/04): $267.52
Current contract rate: (1/1/12): $188.96
To restore the current contract 2012 rate to the C2K rate without inflation - 42% increase required.
To restore the current contract 2012 rate to the C2K rate adjusted for inflation ($323.21) - 71% increase required.
(source used to calculate inflation: Tom's Inflation Calculator)
MD-88 -
C2K rate (5/1/04): $237.37
Current contract rate: (1/1/12): $167.68
To restore the current contract 2012 rate to the C2K rate without inflation - 42% increase required.
To restore the current contract 2012 rate to the C2K rate adjusted for inflation ($286.78) - 71% increase required.
(source used to calculate inflation: Tom's Inflation Calculator)
B-767 -
C2K rate (5/1/04): $267.52
Current contract rate: (1/1/12): $188.96
To restore the current contract 2012 rate to the C2K rate without inflation - 42% increase required.
To restore the current contract 2012 rate to the C2K rate adjusted for inflation ($323.21) - 71% increase required.
(source used to calculate inflation: Tom's Inflation Calculator)
The figures sent by Mesabah showed a 35% bump required to achieve C2K AT DELTA restoration. I think DAL 88 driver's figures here are a better representative sample, and they show a 42% pay increase on day one required to achieve pay restoration to C2K DELTA PAY RATES. That would bring the bump up to about 800 million, not the 690 million I previously posted based on a 35% pay bump.
800 million is not too much to ask for pay restoration. NOT BASED ON INFLATION SINCE 2003. NOT RESTORING OUR BUYING POWER TO 2003. Just restoring the pay rates. 800 million. Can we agree on that??
Carl
12-05-2010, 02:10 PM
#3280
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Using the public figure of our 5% bump costing 90 million and our four% bump costing 75 million. (LM's statements in letters sent to the pilot group. Pull em if you want to)
90/5 =18 million per percentage point rasie.
75/4 =18.75 million per percentage point raise.
Lets be really conservative and use 18 million
Les use DAL88 figures of 42% points to get back to the dollar per hour of C2K and 71% for the restoration of rates with buying power.
42 x 18 = 756 million for rates alone
71 x 18 = 1.278 billion for restoration of buying power of c2K rates.
Now for Carl
280 744 top pay
225 744 top pay on Jan 1 2012.
Difference of 55 per hour or,
55/225 to equate to 35% points in raise
35 x 18 = 630 million, for the NWA "restoration" rates.
So what facts are we discussing Carl, and 88.
C2K rate restoration will cost about 756 million
Buying power will cost about 1.278 billion
and,
NWA restoration will be about 630 million.
Carl is correct using his numbers off of the NWA contract, but to tout that as restoration to the pilots that were under C2K is quite misleading.
BTW Carl, if you are talking about what you made not what your 777 counterpart made here in 2004 (319 an hr), then 35% is rather pragmatic
90/5 =18 million per percentage point rasie.
75/4 =18.75 million per percentage point raise.
Lets be really conservative and use 18 million
Les use DAL88 figures of 42% points to get back to the dollar per hour of C2K and 71% for the restoration of rates with buying power.
42 x 18 = 756 million for rates alone
71 x 18 = 1.278 billion for restoration of buying power of c2K rates.
Now for Carl
280 744 top pay
225 744 top pay on Jan 1 2012.
Difference of 55 per hour or,
55/225 to equate to 35% points in raise
35 x 18 = 630 million, for the NWA "restoration" rates.
So what facts are we discussing Carl, and 88.
C2K rate restoration will cost about 756 million
Buying power will cost about 1.278 billion
and,
NWA restoration will be about 630 million.
Carl is correct using his numbers off of the NWA contract, but to tout that as restoration to the pilots that were under C2K is quite misleading.
BTW Carl, if you are talking about what you made not what your 777 counterpart made here in 2004 (319 an hr), then 35% is rather pragmatic
Carl
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