Delta Pilots Association
12-04-2010, 09:30 AM
#3241
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Nu, I get your point.
If you remember:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Yes. In the case of us fNWA guys, it was about 50% of pay alone overnight in BK. The frozen pensions and loss of work rules were on top of that.
He said pay alone, and then added all the rest on top. I'm just looking for the facts, as the data I have doesn't support his statement.
If you remember:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Yes. In the case of us fNWA guys, it was about 50% of pay alone overnight in BK. The frozen pensions and loss of work rules were on top of that.
He said pay alone, and then added all the rest on top. I'm just looking for the facts, as the data I have doesn't support his statement.
There goes my situational awareness.......
12-04-2010, 10:18 AM
#3242
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
I forgot about the Pan Am and Western pilots. I would bet however that out of the 505 well under 100 were former Pan Am or Western. Some may have been Western but the bulk of the Pan Am guys would not have made the cut with the seniority numbers they had. In addition in that time frame very few Western or Pan Am guys retired. They choose door number 3 which was to go out on disability which paid 50 percent of FAE plus whatever retirement they had from Pan Am or Western.
That disability concept is going to return big time in the next few years as pilots who don't want to work to 65 realize how much better off they will be on disability.
The medical you mentioned was that the company paid their medical to age 60. The normal contract provided medical for everyone at age 60 retirement. Their only benefit was paid medical for the time period from actual retirement to age 60.
Keep in mind the entire program was conceived to put the furloughed pilots back to work and mitigate the job losses from the major vacation changes made in the 96 contract.
That disability concept is going to return big time in the next few years as pilots who don't want to work to 65 realize how much better off they will be on disability.
The medical you mentioned was that the company paid their medical to age 60. The normal contract provided medical for everyone at age 60 retirement. Their only benefit was paid medical for the time period from actual retirement to age 60.
Keep in mind the entire program was conceived to put the furloughed pilots back to work and mitigate the job losses from the major vacation changes made in the 96 contract.
. Post-Retirement Medical Benefits
Years ago, Delta management had instituted a ten year service requirement before Delta would pay the full cost of a non-pilot employee's post retirement medical insurance premiums. The ten-year service requirement was eventually applied to Delta's pilots when Delta and ALPA entered into a collective bargaining agreement in October 1990. However, in August 1991, the ten-year service requirement was waived to exempt all pilots who were on the Delta seniority list as of August 27, 1991 and had reached age 50 on or before January 1, 1992.
Because the Pan Am pilots were not integrated into the seniority list until November 1, 1991, none of them qualified for this grandfather clause. As discussed above, at the time of the APA, Delta did not permit its captains and first officers to bid down for flight engineer positions after they had reached the FAA-mandated retirement age of 60. Thus, any Pan Am pilots who were over 50 at the time of the APA would not be able to qualify for fully paid post-retirement medical benefits unless they were willing to accept employment in a ground position after they turned 60.
12-04-2010, 11:21 AM
#3243
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
The total contract costs after the first joint contract were right around 2.2 billion. There will be 3 raises of 4 percent each plus the DC increases before the amendable date. That pushes the number to 2.4 or so. To restore everything including pay, work rules, improve the DC ect.. would take the total pilot costs north of 4 billion. Keep in mind we would have to hire at 3000 pilots going back to the old work rules so you have both the pay increases and a much larger work force.
12-04-2010, 02:20 PM
#3244
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
My previous post said pay, not pay rates. I didn't lose about 50% of my pay rate overnight, I lost about 50% of my pay. The rate went from about 285 to about 168 if memory serves. That's a 41% drop in pay rate. Our line values went from the high 70's - low 80's to around 67 to 68 hours and stayed there. Add that to the 41% drop in pay rate, and my paycheck (pay) dropped over 50%. Loss of work rules, vacation, training, sick leave, etc., was all on top of that.
I wasn't here to see what happened at Delta, but my situation was probably pretty similar at old NWA.
Carl
12-04-2010, 02:21 PM
#3245
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Nu, I get your point.
If you remember:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Yes. In the case of us fNWA guys, it was about 50% of pay alone overnight in BK. The frozen pensions and loss of work rules were on top of that.
He said pay alone, and then added all the rest on top. I'm just looking for the facts, as the data I have doesn't support his statement.
If you remember:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Yes. In the case of us fNWA guys, it was about 50% of pay alone overnight in BK. The frozen pensions and loss of work rules were on top of that.
He said pay alone, and then added all the rest on top. I'm just looking for the facts, as the data I have doesn't support his statement.
Carl
12-04-2010, 02:41 PM
#3246
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
But let's say the average is closer to $110,000 year. That's 1.375 billion. To get to C2K pay restoration will require a 60% bump. 60% of 1.375 billion is 825 million. It's nowhere near this figure of 2 billion, 3 billion and 4 billion that people keep stating. 750 million to 825 million. That ain't asking too much.
Since roughly 50% are F/Os and 50% are Captains, let's use the B747 F/O rate of $143/hr as the "average" rate for these 10,000 guys. For the other 2500, we can use B 767 F/O 3rd year rate of $100.
According to ALPA the "average" pilot last year was paid 82 hr/month on average. So, the real math is closer to:
Top 10k pilots: 10,000 x 143 x 82 x 12 = $1.407B
Bottom 2.5k pilots: 2500 x 100 x 82 x 12 = $0.246B
Total = $1.65B for pay alone.
According to ALPA the "average" pilot last year was paid 82 hr/month on average. So, the real math is closer to:
Top 10k pilots: 10,000 x 143 x 82 x 12 = $1.407B
Bottom 2.5k pilots: 2500 x 100 x 82 x 12 = $0.246B
Total = $1.65B for pay alone.
But let's say that it's not and your total pay figure of 1.65 billion is correct. To get to C2K pay restoration, a 60% bump of 1.65 billion is 990 million...not 2 3 or 4 billion. Even at 990 million, that ain't too much to ask. But again, your 82 hour per month average is wrong.
Carl
12-04-2010, 02:42 PM
#3247
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
12-04-2010, 03:24 PM
#3249
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
You can cover any base they want you to cover. The time is not base dependent. I cover sickouts all over the system. It is nothing new.
Using you will also effect the NYC reserves recovered number for your base, but with as many cross hub assignments it really is a wash.
Using you will also effect the NYC reserves recovered number for your base, but with as many cross hub assignments it really is a wash.
12-04-2010, 03:25 PM
#3250
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
But let's say that it's not and your total pay figure of 1.65 billion is correct. To get to C2K pay restoration, a 60% bump of 1.65 billion is 990 million...not 2 3 or 4 billion. Even at 990 million, that ain't too much to ask. But again, your 82 hour per month average is wrong.
Don't let those pesky facts get in the way of a good rant, Carl. Glad to see you're at least consistent.
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