Delta Pilots Association
12-02-2010, 07:01 PM
#3211
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Carl;
I no class warfare here. I know what you are talking about, but look no further than some of the posts around ours to see what guys are saying.
It does happen. Lots of scope was sold for gains in previous contracts. Even you admit that huts the bottom.
Either way, I think Satch's point is that he prefers to see DAL grow, not stagnate because if is not allowed to gain funding for aircraft because of its commitments else where. Makes sense on many levels, but it does not take away the need to recoup the bone cutting cuts that were forced on both permerger groups in 1113C.
We do not differ on where we need to go, and heck I may end up agreeing that it is X or bust, but as I have previously stated, we need to look at a two pronged approach to see which one gets us to where we ultimately want to be the quickest.
I no class warfare here. I know what you are talking about, but look no further than some of the posts around ours to see what guys are saying.
It does happen. Lots of scope was sold for gains in previous contracts. Even you admit that huts the bottom.
Either way, I think Satch's point is that he prefers to see DAL grow, not stagnate because if is not allowed to gain funding for aircraft because of its commitments else where. Makes sense on many levels, but it does not take away the need to recoup the bone cutting cuts that were forced on both permerger groups in 1113C.
We do not differ on where we need to go, and heck I may end up agreeing that it is X or bust, but as I have previously stated, we need to look at a two pronged approach to see which one gets us to where we ultimately want to be the quickest.
12-02-2010, 07:45 PM
#3212
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Carl;
I no class warfare here. I know what you are talking about, but look no further than some of the posts around ours to see what guys are saying.
It does happen. Lots of scope was sold for gains in previous contracts. Even you admit that huts the bottom.
Either way, I think Satch's point is that he prefers to see DAL grow, not stagnate because if is not allowed to gain funding for aircraft because of its commitments else where. Makes sense on many levels, but it does not take away the need to recoup the bone cutting cuts that were forced on both permerger groups in 1113C.
We do not differ on where we need to go, and heck I may end up agreeing that it is X or bust, but as I have previously stated, we need to look at a two pronged approach to see which one gets us to where we ultimately want to be the quickest.
I no class warfare here. I know what you are talking about, but look no further than some of the posts around ours to see what guys are saying.
It does happen. Lots of scope was sold for gains in previous contracts. Even you admit that huts the bottom.
Either way, I think Satch's point is that he prefers to see DAL grow, not stagnate because if is not allowed to gain funding for aircraft because of its commitments else where. Makes sense on many levels, but it does not take away the need to recoup the bone cutting cuts that were forced on both permerger groups in 1113C.
We do not differ on where we need to go, and heck I may end up agreeing that it is X or bust, but as I have previously stated, we need to look at a two pronged approach to see which one gets us to where we ultimately want to be the quickest.
There is an element of class warfare too, but it isnt a senior, and therefore rich versus a junior, and therefore poor issue. There is a great deal of airline mistrust and union understanding among the senior ranks. I only fly with senior folks. There is a great amount of knowledge and history to be gained from these people wrt the "union." Commuter folks probably have their own history on this topic, but ex-military have a great deal to learn. (Speaking from personal experience.)
When folks badmouth DPA, which is a diversion of attention, they are really demonstrating their fear of change. I am generally a pro-DALPA person, it is with this same openmindedness that I approach the whole DPA topic. Delta pilots helping delta pilots. After all, our unions will always be run and populated by the same or similar minded pilots in either model. Generally folks who stepped up because they got fed up and though it was something worth fighting for.
Some of the best advice I ever received in my life was so simple: "Always try to see the big picture." Way too often, on these boards and in our union, that advice needs to be reinforced. Too many of us operate from an ignorant and self-centered view point of how does this affect (just and only) ME. A lot of angst and backpeddling could be avoided if we just made sure we were true to these concepts.
Alright enough soapbox, now your moment of zen:
YouTube - Ridiculously Hot LATINA girl dancing
12-02-2010, 08:28 PM
#3213
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Scambo;
Great post. I will submit that I beleive that DPA is a symptom of a few failures in ALPA. I would love to see more pilots involved in the process. My concerns over an independent get their foundation from what I see as the threats coming our way. We will only have one chance to get it right. I do not want to see us or this industry steamrolled by the power of money and influence in the name of cheaper fares.
Great post. I will submit that I beleive that DPA is a symptom of a few failures in ALPA. I would love to see more pilots involved in the process. My concerns over an independent get their foundation from what I see as the threats coming our way. We will only have one chance to get it right. I do not want to see us or this industry steamrolled by the power of money and influence in the name of cheaper fares.
12-02-2010, 09:12 PM
#3214
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Jeez 88:
Lets see. DAL needs billions of new jets. There will be some financing for that. They want a good risk after the CH11 era. They can exert pressure by tinkering with DAL's debt rating if their costs go way above the margins that they feel are safe.
You tout being a business man, you know that unless you are able to buy everything in cash you have to listen to the banks to get those loans. It is called a good credit rating. Lose that, and it gets very expensive to compete. We should see that after the last ten years. It is not rocket science.
It just means that for every action (restoration, raises et al way above industry norms) will cause and equal and opposite reaction to reign in costs. If AMR and CALALPA do not get this level, then we would be way above them wrt to costs, and as we saw with LUV killing markets in the last decade that is a dangerous place to me. I prefer to write history not repeat it.
Lets see. DAL needs billions of new jets. There will be some financing for that. They want a good risk after the CH11 era. They can exert pressure by tinkering with DAL's debt rating if their costs go way above the margins that they feel are safe.
You tout being a business man, you know that unless you are able to buy everything in cash you have to listen to the banks to get those loans. It is called a good credit rating. Lose that, and it gets very expensive to compete. We should see that after the last ten years. It is not rocket science.
It just means that for every action (restoration, raises et al way above industry norms) will cause and equal and opposite reaction to reign in costs. If AMR and CALALPA do not get this level, then we would be way above them wrt to costs, and as we saw with LUV killing markets in the last decade that is a dangerous place to me. I prefer to write history not repeat it.
I seriously doubt that restoration of our pay would increase the overall costs at Delta to the point of effecting our credit ratings. I still think you are overstating the possible effect of our little piece of the pie getting restoration. Now financing "billions of new jets"... THAT would be expensive!!
So you think we need to be limited to "industry norms" in pilot compensation. That's very interesting considering you were one of the ones that up until recently was calling for significant steps toward restoration with C2012. I would remind you that the "industry norm" right now is at least 40% below what it has historically been. You don't have to be a math major to figure out that will take some VERY significant increases to overcome. Sounds to me like in reality you've given up on restoration. Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Just don't expect me to be comfortable with that opinion and, especially, don't expect me to be comfortable with being represented by people who think like that.
You see, THAT is one of the real reasons why we are here even discussing DPA. ALPA has failed to make even the most basic efforts at restoration. I had a long sit in ATL yesterday and spent quite a bit of time visiting with a couple of the ATL LEC reps. I was actually impressed with what they had to say. They seem (at least they were saying the right things to me) to be coming around and on board with the idea of very significant increases for us with C2012. This is just my take on it, but I think maybe the old, LM way of thinking (apparently your way of thinking now) is on the way out.
12-02-2010, 09:31 PM
#3215
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
You had me at "billions of new jets"!
I seriously doubt that restoration of our pay would increase the overall costs at Delta to the point of effecting our credit ratings. I still think you are overstating the possible effect of our little piece of the pie getting restoration. Now financing "billions of new jets"... THAT would be expensive!!
So you think we need to be limited to "industry norms" in pilot compensation. That's very interesting considering you were one of the ones that up until recently was calling for significant steps toward restoration with C2012. I would remind you that the "industry norm" right now is at least 40% below what it has historically been. You don't have to be a math major to figure out that will take some VERY significant increases to overcome. Sounds to me like in reality you've given up on restoration. Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Just don't expect me to be comfortable with that opinion and, especially, don't expect me to be comfortable with being represented by people who think like that.
You see, THAT is one of the real reasons why we are here even discussing DPA. ALPA has failed to make even the most basic efforts at restoration. I had a long sit in ATL yesterday and spent quite a bit of time visiting with a couple of the ATL LEC reps. I was actually impressed with what they had to say. They seem (at least they were saying the right things to me) to be coming around and on board with the idea of very significant increases for us with C2012. This is just my take on it, but I think maybe the old, LM way of thinking (apparently your way of thinking now) is on the way out.
I seriously doubt that restoration of our pay would increase the overall costs at Delta to the point of effecting our credit ratings. I still think you are overstating the possible effect of our little piece of the pie getting restoration. Now financing "billions of new jets"... THAT would be expensive!!
So you think we need to be limited to "industry norms" in pilot compensation. That's very interesting considering you were one of the ones that up until recently was calling for significant steps toward restoration with C2012. I would remind you that the "industry norm" right now is at least 40% below what it has historically been. You don't have to be a math major to figure out that will take some VERY significant increases to overcome. Sounds to me like in reality you've given up on restoration. Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Just don't expect me to be comfortable with that opinion and, especially, don't expect me to be comfortable with being represented by people who think like that.
You see, THAT is one of the real reasons why we are here even discussing DPA. ALPA has failed to make even the most basic efforts at restoration. I had a long sit in ATL yesterday and spent quite a bit of time visiting with a couple of the ATL LEC reps. I was actually impressed with what they had to say. They seem (at least they were saying the right things to me) to be coming around and on board with the idea of very significant increases for us with C2012. This is just my take on it, but I think maybe the old, LM way of thinking (apparently your way of thinking now) is on the way out.
Once again... absolutely spot on!
12-03-2010, 01:45 AM
#3216
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
You had me at "billions of new jets"!
I seriously doubt that restoration of our pay would increase the overall costs at Delta to the point of effecting our credit ratings. I still think you are overstating the possible effect of our little piece of the pie getting restoration. Now financing "billions of new jets"... THAT would be expensive!!
I seriously doubt that restoration of our pay would increase the overall costs at Delta to the point of effecting our credit ratings. I still think you are overstating the possible effect of our little piece of the pie getting restoration. Now financing "billions of new jets"... THAT would be expensive!!
Approximate average pilot salary at Delta .... = $100,000 per year
Approximate number of Delta pilots.............. = 12,500
Approximate total pilot payroll.................... = 1.25 Billion
Increase required to get to restoration pay.. = 60%
Additional annual cost to get restoration pay = 750 million
750 million per year is not a company destroyer. Not even close.
So you think we need to be limited to "industry norms" in pilot compensation. That's very interesting considering you were one of the ones that up until recently was calling for significant steps toward restoration with C2012. I would remind you that the "industry norm" right now is at least 40% below what it has historically been. You don't have to be a math major to figure out that will take some VERY significant increases to overcome. Sounds to me like in reality you've given up on restoration. Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Just don't expect me to be comfortable with that opinion and, especially, don't expect me to be comfortable with being represented by people who think like that.
You see, THAT is one of the real reasons why we are here even discussing DPA. ALPA has failed to make even the most basic efforts at restoration. I had a long sit in ATL yesterday and spent quite a bit of time visiting with a couple of the ATL LEC reps. I was actually impressed with what they had to say. They seem (at least they were saying the right things to me) to be coming around and on board with the idea of very significant increases for us with C2012. This is just my take on it, but I think maybe the old, LM way of thinking (apparently your way of thinking now) is on the way out.
You see, THAT is one of the real reasons why we are here even discussing DPA. ALPA has failed to make even the most basic efforts at restoration. I had a long sit in ATL yesterday and spent quite a bit of time visiting with a couple of the ATL LEC reps. I was actually impressed with what they had to say. They seem (at least they were saying the right things to me) to be coming around and on board with the idea of very significant increases for us with C2012. This is just my take on it, but I think maybe the old, LM way of thinking (apparently your way of thinking now) is on the way out.
Carl
12-03-2010, 01:58 AM
#3217
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
What I think everyone (on these forums) understands is that scope sales, agreed to by a majority, were a HUGE mistake. On this topic, it should be our role as we approach section 6 to re-educate our colleages on the REAL danger and mistake WE brought upon ourselves. I fully expect the company to re-test this tactic in contract negotiations ...WE MUST realize that this is a red herring. The only response can be NO.
1. We ALL caved in on scope due to extreme fear. Our management (and thus our union) said they needed it to maintain a competitive operation with American and AmericanEagle. They said without it, the company would quickly die. When we said no and said we would strike over it, the company said: "go ahead, it will just kill the company a little quicker than it will otherwise be killed without these scope concessions." Fear won the day. It frequently does.
2. Senior people only occupy about the top one third of the list. The numbers on voting FOR the scope sales were in the 60 to 70 percent range. You can't get those percentage numbers from just the senior people, even if every senior guy voted for it...which we DIDN'T. The only way to get 60 to 70 percent of any vote is many, many mid level and junior people to also vote for the scope cave in.
This is not my opinion. This is the plain historical fact. It is history that I am ashamed of, but it is OUR history.
Carl
12-03-2010, 05:52 AM
#3218
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Carl;
For a real restoration contract the total cost is about 2 billion per year. (not including pension restoration for the South or unfreezing the North Pensions) It is about 1.2 billion for the 65% bump to get you to C2K 2004 buying power.
Company brings in about 30-32 billion in year in revenue.
Total restoration would put our pay at about 3.8 billion a year, or approx 12% of the total cash flow for the corporation. That is about the same percentage DAL was at in 2001. Pilot contracts equated to about 10-12% of the total revenue for the corporation.
Like I have said prior, depending on what the next year brings, that may be possible, but now is not the time to set that in stone.
We currently are about 6-8%of the total revenue of the operation, and equate to about 33% of the total labor cost.
For a real restoration contract the total cost is about 2 billion per year. (not including pension restoration for the South or unfreezing the North Pensions) It is about 1.2 billion for the 65% bump to get you to C2K 2004 buying power.
Company brings in about 30-32 billion in year in revenue.
Total restoration would put our pay at about 3.8 billion a year, or approx 12% of the total cash flow for the corporation. That is about the same percentage DAL was at in 2001. Pilot contracts equated to about 10-12% of the total revenue for the corporation.
Like I have said prior, depending on what the next year brings, that may be possible, but now is not the time to set that in stone.
We currently are about 6-8%of the total revenue of the operation, and equate to about 33% of the total labor cost.
12-03-2010, 06:01 AM
#3219
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
You had me at "billions of new jets"!
I seriously doubt that restoration of our pay would increase the overall costs at Delta to the point of effecting our credit ratings. I still think you are overstating the possible effect of our little piece of the pie getting restoration. Now financing "billions of new jets"... THAT would be expensive!!
So you think we need to be limited to "industry norms" in pilot compensation. That's very interesting considering you were one of the ones that up until recently was calling for significant steps toward restoration with C2012. I would remind you that the "industry norm" right now is at least 40% below what it has historically been. You don't have to be a math major to figure out that will take some VERY significant increases to overcome. Sounds to me like in reality you've given up on restoration. Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Just don't expect me to be comfortable with that opinion and, especially, don't expect me to be comfortable with being represented by people who think like that.
You see, THAT is one of the real reasons why we are here even discussing DPA. ALPA has failed to make even the most basic efforts at restoration. I had a long sit in ATL yesterday and spent quite a bit of time visiting with a couple of the ATL LEC reps. I was actually impressed with what they had to say. They seem (at least they were saying the right things to me) to be coming around and on board with the idea of very significant increases for us with C2012. This is just my take on it, but I think maybe the old, LM way of thinking (apparently your way of thinking now) is on the way out.
I seriously doubt that restoration of our pay would increase the overall costs at Delta to the point of effecting our credit ratings. I still think you are overstating the possible effect of our little piece of the pie getting restoration. Now financing "billions of new jets"... THAT would be expensive!!
So you think we need to be limited to "industry norms" in pilot compensation. That's very interesting considering you were one of the ones that up until recently was calling for significant steps toward restoration with C2012. I would remind you that the "industry norm" right now is at least 40% below what it has historically been. You don't have to be a math major to figure out that will take some VERY significant increases to overcome. Sounds to me like in reality you've given up on restoration. Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Just don't expect me to be comfortable with that opinion and, especially, don't expect me to be comfortable with being represented by people who think like that.
You see, THAT is one of the real reasons why we are here even discussing DPA. ALPA has failed to make even the most basic efforts at restoration. I had a long sit in ATL yesterday and spent quite a bit of time visiting with a couple of the ATL LEC reps. I was actually impressed with what they had to say. They seem (at least they were saying the right things to me) to be coming around and on board with the idea of very significant increases for us with C2012. This is just my take on it, but I think maybe the old, LM way of thinking (apparently your way of thinking now) is on the way out.
The point of all of the math et al, is to state that depending on where the airline and world economy go, it could be a easy walk to restoration, or we may experience the same thing APA has.
The C44 Reps want to get us the best contract they can get us. What that is, is anyone's guess. It is too early to tell. If we see another year anywhere near 2010's numbers, restoration of 90% of the C2K contract would more than likely be a end point.
The whole debate back and forth is to state that there are many ways to peel this banana. One step, two steps, or a mid term with a one year extension, all of these could be the correct answer. I know that my reps are open to all of them and will choose the option that is the best option for all of us.
In the next few weeks and months a lot will happen to set us up for 2012. Best thing you can do 88 is make sure every pilot in MEM fills that survey out. Whatever the majority position of that survey is will be the direction we take.
12-03-2010, 06:06 AM
#3220
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Danger, danger...Carl is about to use a calculator!
Approximate average pilot salary at Delta .... = $100,000 per year
Approximate number of Delta pilots.............. = 12,500
Approximate total pilot payroll.................... = 1.25 Billion
Increase required to get to restoration pay.. = 60%
Additional annual cost to get restoration pay = 750 million
750 million per year is not a company destroyer. Not even close.
Agreed.
Carl
Approximate average pilot salary at Delta .... = $100,000 per year
Approximate number of Delta pilots.............. = 12,500
Approximate total pilot payroll.................... = 1.25 Billion
Increase required to get to restoration pay.. = 60%
Additional annual cost to get restoration pay = 750 million
750 million per year is not a company destroyer. Not even close.
Agreed.
Carl
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