Delta Pilots Association
12-01-2010, 10:21 AM
#3161
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
They are at $212 per hour and we are currently at $168 how is that 15%? Even using next years rate we need 18% not 15%, also what do they increase to next year? I don't know what SWA increases are but if they are near ours we would see out top rate at $297, wasn't the c2k rate around $305?
And interesting question is, when did we start chasing LCC rates? I think restoration is possible but the above is my personal minimum today not in 2012. I also have a ton of other hot button issues that I would like to see addressed.
And interesting question is, when did we start chasing LCC rates? I think restoration is possible but the above is my personal minimum today not in 2012. I also have a ton of other hot button issues that I would like to see addressed.
181.20
SWA Rate is 206. Even with the 3% bump it is 212
So 181.20/212.00 equals .85 percent of their rate. So to get to their rate off of our PWA 2012 rate is about 17% tops, and that takes in to account their newest agreement for the 3%. It is a far cry from "restoration."
You and I agree. I have said repeatedly,LUV rates should not be a goal but a guide. I do not think we should chase them. You are correct in stating that their rates used to be way below ours, and I am sure that after the CH11 dip, we and the other Legacies will once again be above their rates by a good margin. It will take time.
I can also tell you that their rates are not my min "today" Added with fixing 1,12,23,25 and a bunch of other issues, I think that as Sailing said, we can add one billion to the cost of our PWA. The next billion will be dependent on many factors, and one of them is the profitability of our company (we do work for a for profit company that does not have a monopoly on its services) and the second one is where overall pilot compensation is when we open Section Three. Those are just the realities.
Unity may take us farther, but unless the NMB sees the demands as somewhere near rational, they will not release you. Reality is that DAL is huge and accounts for a huge chunk of the domestic air travel, and is the number one service provider on all continents out of North America except South America where we are number two. The NMB would never release a group this size unless they figured it would lead to a agreement.
Look no further than APA to see what happens when a NMB Member does not see a chance of movement. It stinks but those are the realities under the NMB. That is why if we can get sizable gains on day one, with huge improvements in many of the hot button issues, and be back at the table in three to four years, it makes sense to do so. Why? Because if fixes the work rules, will provide a percentage increase to your W2 immediately, increases retirement today, which nothing but cash and compounding today and not tomorrow can help, and allows us to put in to position a pay rate for our fellow pilots to top.
If APA, CAL get new rates, and USAPA wins their grievance, the variables change, and we will adjust accordingly for our opener and thereafter. The guys at ALPA are not a bunch of stooges. Take the time to call them, listen to them. You will come away with a better understanding of a lot of the issues. You may disagree with some, but that is OK. A debate on a few issues is necessary. You will also realize that the solutions are complex and the path to the goal is not as clearly marked as some would like to believe.
12-01-2010, 10:37 AM
#3162
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
Jan 1, 2012 Rate:
181.20
SWA Rate is 206. Even with the 3% bump it is 212
So 181.20/212.00 equals .85 percent of their rate. So to get to their rate off of our PWA 2012 rate is about 17% tops, and that takes in to account their newest agreement for the 3%. It is a far cry from "restoration."
You and I agree. I have said repeatedly,LUV rates should not be a goal but a guide. I do not think we should chase them. You are correct in stating that their rates used to be way below ours, and I am sure that after the CH11 dip, we and the other Legacies will once again be above their rates by a good margin. It will take time.
I can also tell you that their rates are not my min "today" Added with fixing 1,12,23,25 and a bunch of other issues, I think that as Sailing said, we can add one billion to the cost of our PWA. The next billion will be dependent on many factors, and one of them is the profitability of our company (we do work for a for profit company that does not have a monopoly on its services) and the second one is where overall pilot compensation is when we open Section Three. Those are just the realities.
Unity may take us farther, but unless the NMB sees the demands as somewhere near rational, they will not release you. Reality is that DAL is huge and accounts for a huge chunk of the domestic air travel, and is the number one service provider on all continents out of North America except South America where we are number two. The NMB would never release a group this size unless they figured it would lead to a agreement.
Look no further than APA to see what happens when a NMB Member does not see a chance of movement. It stinks but those are the realities under the NMB. That is why if we can get sizable gains on day one, with huge improvements in many of the hot button issues, and be back at the table in three to four years, it makes sense to do so. Why? Because if fixes the work rules, will provide a percentage increase to your W2 immediately, increases retirement today, which nothing but cash and compounding today and not tomorrow can help, and allows us to put in to position a pay rate for our fellow pilots to top.
If APA, CAL get new rates, and USAPA wins their grievance, the variables change, and we will adjust accordingly for our opener and thereafter. The guys at ALPA are not a bunch of stooges. Take the time to call them, listen to them. You will come away with a better understanding of a lot of the issues. You may disagree with some, but that is OK. A debate on a few issues is necessary. You will also realize that the solutions are complex and the path to the goal is not as clearly marked as some would like to believe.
181.20
SWA Rate is 206. Even with the 3% bump it is 212
So 181.20/212.00 equals .85 percent of their rate. So to get to their rate off of our PWA 2012 rate is about 17% tops, and that takes in to account their newest agreement for the 3%. It is a far cry from "restoration."
You and I agree. I have said repeatedly,LUV rates should not be a goal but a guide. I do not think we should chase them. You are correct in stating that their rates used to be way below ours, and I am sure that after the CH11 dip, we and the other Legacies will once again be above their rates by a good margin. It will take time.
I can also tell you that their rates are not my min "today" Added with fixing 1,12,23,25 and a bunch of other issues, I think that as Sailing said, we can add one billion to the cost of our PWA. The next billion will be dependent on many factors, and one of them is the profitability of our company (we do work for a for profit company that does not have a monopoly on its services) and the second one is where overall pilot compensation is when we open Section Three. Those are just the realities.
Unity may take us farther, but unless the NMB sees the demands as somewhere near rational, they will not release you. Reality is that DAL is huge and accounts for a huge chunk of the domestic air travel, and is the number one service provider on all continents out of North America except South America where we are number two. The NMB would never release a group this size unless they figured it would lead to a agreement.
Look no further than APA to see what happens when a NMB Member does not see a chance of movement. It stinks but those are the realities under the NMB. That is why if we can get sizable gains on day one, with huge improvements in many of the hot button issues, and be back at the table in three to four years, it makes sense to do so. Why? Because if fixes the work rules, will provide a percentage increase to your W2 immediately, increases retirement today, which nothing but cash and compounding today and not tomorrow can help, and allows us to put in to position a pay rate for our fellow pilots to top.
If APA, CAL get new rates, and USAPA wins their grievance, the variables change, and we will adjust accordingly for our opener and thereafter. The guys at ALPA are not a bunch of stooges. Take the time to call them, listen to them. You will come away with a better understanding of a lot of the issues. You may disagree with some, but that is OK. A debate on a few issues is necessary. You will also realize that the solutions are complex and the path to the goal is not as clearly marked as some would like to believe.
As for taking time to get above SWA rates you are correct...... The time it should take is with the signing of our next contract and we should be well above the numbers we are talking here.
12-01-2010, 10:42 AM
#3163
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
As listed on this site their pay is 206. It is semantics, but go read their quicktake on here.
* Due to SWA's profit, pilots received a 3% pay raise retroactively effective Sept 1st, reflected in below payscale
* This was the variable raise scheduled for this year; min raise was 0%, max was 3%. SWA achieved required profit to trigger 3% raise
* TA reached in October, paying pilots the same rate for 737-800s as existing rates
* Pilots would be eligible for profitability-based raises in 2011 and 2012
* The deal would also extend the contract one year to Aug 2012
* Pilots to vote on deal
* Southwest to buy Airtran for $1.4B
* Combined airline would fly more than 100m passengers out of more than 100 airports
* Southwest to inherit these AirTran int'l cities: Cancun, Aruba, Montego Bay, Nassau, Punta Cana, Dominican Republic
* New SWA-AirTran merger website
* Southwest also to inherit a new fleet type: 717s
* San Jose (SJC) to Austin (AUS) begins Nov 7
* Codeshare with Mexican airline Volaris
* DEN: 144 daily departures
* Southwest routemap
* This page last updated: Oct 28, 2010 (hiring info)
* Due to SWA's profit, pilots received a 3% pay raise retroactively effective Sept 1st, reflected in below payscale
* This was the variable raise scheduled for this year; min raise was 0%, max was 3%. SWA achieved required profit to trigger 3% raise
* TA reached in October, paying pilots the same rate for 737-800s as existing rates
* Pilots would be eligible for profitability-based raises in 2011 and 2012
* The deal would also extend the contract one year to Aug 2012
* Pilots to vote on deal
* Southwest to buy Airtran for $1.4B
* Combined airline would fly more than 100m passengers out of more than 100 airports
* Southwest to inherit these AirTran int'l cities: Cancun, Aruba, Montego Bay, Nassau, Punta Cana, Dominican Republic
* New SWA-AirTran merger website
* Southwest also to inherit a new fleet type: 717s
* San Jose (SJC) to Austin (AUS) begins Nov 7
* Codeshare with Mexican airline Volaris
* DEN: 144 daily departures
* Southwest routemap
* This page last updated: Oct 28, 2010 (hiring info)
12-01-2010, 11:14 AM
#3164
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 187
12-01-2010, 01:16 PM
#3167
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
If so, maybe it's best to throw in the Jan 1, 2012 rates for our 320's, M90's, M88's, & DC-9's, since I'm fairly sure each of those airplanes carry more passengers than a B-717.
A-320 174.84
MD90 171.71
MD88 167.68
DC9-50 163.05
Once again, if so, it looks like it would take about a 30% raise for the M88 and DC9 guys & gals.
12-01-2010, 01:53 PM
#3170
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
That's good to hear. But, if you extrapolate that out, doesn't that get our 777A's and 747A's a pay rate around the $300 per hour rate and Satch in the "worried about keeping his job" mode again?
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