Delta Pilots Association
11-30-2010, 11:59 PM
#3141
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Someone stated this earlier....Ask for what we want. That's where we should start.
My wife wants a new BMW. She may get a certified pre-owned BMW.
My kid wants a nintendo dsi xl. He will be getting the ds-lite.
They both asked for what they wanted and management, me, found a way to give it to them.
My wife wants a new BMW. She may get a certified pre-owned BMW.
My kid wants a nintendo dsi xl. He will be getting the ds-lite.
They both asked for what they wanted and management, me, found a way to give it to them.
Carl
12-01-2010, 12:05 AM
#3142
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
12-01-2010, 12:09 AM
#3143
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
12-01-2010, 12:11 AM
#3144
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I think you are way overstating the effect that pilot costs have in the grand scheme of things. According to APA's fact sheet from when they were asking for a partial restoration back to 1992 buying power (~50% increase), the effect on CASM at AA would have been less than 1/2 cent. Look at how much of a typical ticket price is represented by pilot costs. It's not a make or break thing for the airline. They have all kinds of large expenses that cannot be forecast precisely. Things like fuel prices, weather impacting multiple hubs at the same time multiple times throughout a particular year, etc. These are things that cannot be completely planned for, which means they have to adjust... they have to find a way to make it work. Those become priorities for them. Apparently their own compensation is a priority too. We need to make fixing our pilot compensation a priority. Unfortunately, DALPA has spent the last several years setting the tone that this does not need to be a priority... that's it's not that big of a deal. And if it's not a priority to us, then it's certainly not going to be a priority to them!
Arguments like yours just make this worse and, IMO, work against our ability to get the improvements we so desperately need. I know that's not your intention... but it is the way I see it.
Arguments like yours just make this worse and, IMO, work against our ability to get the improvements we so desperately need. I know that's not your intention... but it is the way I see it.
Carl
12-01-2010, 01:58 AM
#3145
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
No Carl C2K rates are great, why would someone not want to get paid that? It is not a lack of want. Everyone wants to make more money, everyone would like to see those rates, and I do believe that someday you will see the rates again. I think it is too soon to make anything our position. We have time.
If you want to negotiate a contract right now, I do think it would be impossible to get those rates. Where we are in 12 months may be another story.
Generally we do not discuss rates on day one either. Depending on what the rest of the industry has or has not done, it may behoove us to get the other stuff TAed before we set a top limit to the hourly rate.
I have no idea what we will ask for, but if you want guys to go for it all, you have to get them on board. Whatever the majority of the pilots state they want in their survey will be what ALPA does.
80;
That is a common misconception. ALPA does care what their pilots want, and does what they can to put the group in a position to get what they want the quickest. Some many not like the methodology but the desires and goals are there. This is not a group of guys that wants to screw their group.
If you want to have a way to see the cross section and then give that input directly become a P2P volunteer.
If you want to negotiate a contract right now, I do think it would be impossible to get those rates. Where we are in 12 months may be another story.
Generally we do not discuss rates on day one either. Depending on what the rest of the industry has or has not done, it may behoove us to get the other stuff TAed before we set a top limit to the hourly rate.
I have no idea what we will ask for, but if you want guys to go for it all, you have to get them on board. Whatever the majority of the pilots state they want in their survey will be what ALPA does.
80;
That is a common misconception. ALPA does care what their pilots want, and does what they can to put the group in a position to get what they want the quickest. Some many not like the methodology but the desires and goals are there. This is not a group of guys that wants to screw their group.
If you want to have a way to see the cross section and then give that input directly become a P2P volunteer.
12-01-2010, 03:01 AM
#3146
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
No Carl C2K rates are great, why would someone not want to get paid that? It is not a lack of want. Everyone wants to make more money, everyone would like to see those rates, and I do believe that someday you will see the rates again. I think it is too soon to make anything our position. We have time.
Yes, the bankers do own our company. The largest shareholder is reportedly Fidelity, at 13.2%. I think AMEX owns a chunk too. The investors that provided the financing to exit Ch11 want to get paid, too. We made around 2 billion profit this year, did we not? As previously stated C2K would raise pilot pay costs by 2 billion. Where do you think they are going to recoup that money? They are not just going to say, "oh well, it's a cost of doing business, and darn it, those guys deserve it!"
I DON'T WANT TO GET PAID THE MOST! I WANT TO GET PAID THE LONGEST!
12-01-2010, 03:41 AM
#3147
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Satch;
I know this is where you stand. There are economics of pay. DAL88 quoted a 1/2 cent per seat mile increase for AMR's restoration. A half cent makes a huge difference when the amount of seat miles is where they are here. 1/2 cent is a 10% increase the the CASM on a 753 or a 744 (8-11.5%) It does add up.
Their point is junior boy, become a man, get furloughed, it is just the way it is. Not sure how that benefits the group, but they say it does. I agree the logical gains are what is needed, not emotional demands longing for yesteryear. If restoration Plus is logical at the time we slip our Section Three demands across the table, then great. If not, then lets not do it. (Not settling Carl, just wanting to move the ball down the field to get out of under what many are complaining about besides just pay)
May guys seem to be myopic on the hourly rates, and in the next breath complain about the work rules, retirement, vacation, sick bank, and a plethora of other items. I say, if you can get a sizable increase in pay while fixing most if not all of that on Jan 1,2013, and then be back at the table three to four years later, does it not make sense to do so? We could the ball down the field immediately wrt to a moderate increase of pay, and get these work rules fixed so that the QOL issues get fixed, work rules, reserve et al get fixed, and as a result the pay goes up, and the money gets in to our pockets today and not in five to seven years. It would be safe to assume that we would take the same road as APA and take at least as long to get to the same place. Why not do it with two contract cycles and the logic of time valuation of money?
It is not selling out, it is a tactic that has worked for many corporations and individuals alike. It allows us to recoup a lot quickly and not suffer any longer with the changes in how we work. It allows the company to know its costs going forward, allowing more WB jets, more NB jets, and the ability for our airline to grow and prosper. Not on our backs, but by doing things smartly.
We always can go back to X or bust if the company does not want to play ball.
Many like to hammer I and others on this principle, and it is OK to disagree. It is one method to employ, and many think it is the method that will help this group the most. Time will tell what we eventually do, but until then, it is fun debating the issue.
I know this is where you stand. There are economics of pay. DAL88 quoted a 1/2 cent per seat mile increase for AMR's restoration. A half cent makes a huge difference when the amount of seat miles is where they are here. 1/2 cent is a 10% increase the the CASM on a 753 or a 744 (8-11.5%) It does add up.
Their point is junior boy, become a man, get furloughed, it is just the way it is. Not sure how that benefits the group, but they say it does. I agree the logical gains are what is needed, not emotional demands longing for yesteryear. If restoration Plus is logical at the time we slip our Section Three demands across the table, then great. If not, then lets not do it. (Not settling Carl, just wanting to move the ball down the field to get out of under what many are complaining about besides just pay)
May guys seem to be myopic on the hourly rates, and in the next breath complain about the work rules, retirement, vacation, sick bank, and a plethora of other items. I say, if you can get a sizable increase in pay while fixing most if not all of that on Jan 1,2013, and then be back at the table three to four years later, does it not make sense to do so? We could the ball down the field immediately wrt to a moderate increase of pay, and get these work rules fixed so that the QOL issues get fixed, work rules, reserve et al get fixed, and as a result the pay goes up, and the money gets in to our pockets today and not in five to seven years. It would be safe to assume that we would take the same road as APA and take at least as long to get to the same place. Why not do it with two contract cycles and the logic of time valuation of money?
It is not selling out, it is a tactic that has worked for many corporations and individuals alike. It allows us to recoup a lot quickly and not suffer any longer with the changes in how we work. It allows the company to know its costs going forward, allowing more WB jets, more NB jets, and the ability for our airline to grow and prosper. Not on our backs, but by doing things smartly.
We always can go back to X or bust if the company does not want to play ball.
Many like to hammer I and others on this principle, and it is OK to disagree. It is one method to employ, and many think it is the method that will help this group the most. Time will tell what we eventually do, but until then, it is fun debating the issue.
12-01-2010, 04:05 AM
#3148
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
I tell you what, ACL. I don't want C2K rates. Because those rates will be great for Carl, Dal88, Sailing, and Nu. It will make them rich. Guys like me and FTB, and Johnson will be collecting 99 weeks of unemployment benefits.
Yes, the bankers do own our company. The largest shareholder is reportedly Fidelity, at 13.2%. I think AMEX owns a chunk too. The investors that provided the financing to exit Ch11 want to get paid, too. We made around 2 billion profit this year, did we not? As previously stated C2K would raise pilot pay costs by 2 billion. Where do you think they are going to recoup that money? They are not just going to say, "oh well, it's a cost of doing business, and darn it, those guys deserve it!"
I DON'T WANT TO GET PAID THE MOST! I WANT TO GET PAID THE LONGEST!
Yes, the bankers do own our company. The largest shareholder is reportedly Fidelity, at 13.2%. I think AMEX owns a chunk too. The investors that provided the financing to exit Ch11 want to get paid, too. We made around 2 billion profit this year, did we not? As previously stated C2K would raise pilot pay costs by 2 billion. Where do you think they are going to recoup that money? They are not just going to say, "oh well, it's a cost of doing business, and darn it, those guys deserve it!"
I DON'T WANT TO GET PAID THE MOST! I WANT TO GET PAID THE LONGEST!
To put it bluntly SWA makes 22% more per hour than we do! I think that SWA rates + 10% would be the minimum I would accept from management. We also need to increase the 401k to the 18%-20% plus boost work rule language. The minimum guarantee should be 70 hours for a blockholder and 75 for a reserve.
For those worried about having a job I do not believe our salary or lack of salary will cause or stave off a furlough. Any resulting furlough will be do to the business decisions our management!
12-01-2010, 04:12 AM
#3149
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
NWA320;
Do not say that too loud because it is not restoration!
22% from today's rates not 2012 rates btw. 15% is all the raise you would need to get to SWA rates for them to equal off of our 2012 rates.
25-30% is what you are looking for. That is not restoration, but a good bit, is it not? Add work rules, vacation, sick bank, etc to that and you would quickly be near a 50% increase in pilot costs.
Do not say that too loud because it is not restoration!
22% from today's rates not 2012 rates btw. 15% is all the raise you would need to get to SWA rates for them to equal off of our 2012 rates.
25-30% is what you are looking for. That is not restoration, but a good bit, is it not? Add work rules, vacation, sick bank, etc to that and you would quickly be near a 50% increase in pilot costs.
12-01-2010, 04:23 AM
#3150
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
They are at $212 per hour and we are currently at $168 how is that 15%? Even using next years rate we need 18% not 15%, also what do they increase to next year? I don't know what SWA increases are but if they are near ours we would see out top rate at $297, wasn't the c2k rate around $305?
And interesting question is, when did we start chasing LCC rates? I think restoration is possible but the above is my personal minimum today not in 2012. I also have a ton of other hot button issues that I would like to see addressed.
And interesting question is, when did we start chasing LCC rates? I think restoration is possible but the above is my personal minimum today not in 2012. I also have a ton of other hot button issues that I would like to see addressed.
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