Delta Pilots Association
11-30-2010, 12:12 PM
#3132
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
When the survey is released next year, the desire is for 100% participation. The Web based survey had a horrible turnout. I do not know the specific percentage, but it was somewhere around 1/3 of the pilots
11-30-2010, 12:32 PM
#3134
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,324
11-30-2010, 12:42 PM
#3135
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Two quarters DAL88 does not make prove the plan will be successful going forward.
My guess is 2011 will be in the black but not to the extent this year was.
We do not get paid what we are worth. We get paid what we negotiate. Even if we demand it, we may not get it if it makes the (for profit) company's solvency come in to question. With CH11 and the previous five years as an example, the only way a single step to these pay raises happens, is if all of the major players go play golf one day and think that it is a good idea
Until you can make pilot costs a fix cost across the industry it is going to very hard for any airline to willfully agree to price itself out of many of its markets. Many investors want 10%+ margins to continue to finance an airline. (Suspect they will be happy with 5-7%) but the reality is that as a whole the industry and this profession face stiff headwinds.
The Manager:
I see where you are going with your idea. I makes a lot of sense on the surface, and could be something that is looked at if we opt to change the current formulas. It at least as a static valuation to it.
DAL88;
My person assumption is that DAL can afford at least 1.5-2 times the total raises we got under the JPWA on day one. That is my assumption, and does not include work rule changes.
My guess is 2011 will be in the black but not to the extent this year was.
We do not get paid what we are worth. We get paid what we negotiate. Even if we demand it, we may not get it if it makes the (for profit) company's solvency come in to question. With CH11 and the previous five years as an example, the only way a single step to these pay raises happens, is if all of the major players go play golf one day and think that it is a good idea
Until you can make pilot costs a fix cost across the industry it is going to very hard for any airline to willfully agree to price itself out of many of its markets. Many investors want 10%+ margins to continue to finance an airline. (Suspect they will be happy with 5-7%) but the reality is that as a whole the industry and this profession face stiff headwinds.
The Manager:
I see where you are going with your idea. I makes a lot of sense on the surface, and could be something that is looked at if we opt to change the current formulas. It at least as a static valuation to it.
DAL88;
My person assumption is that DAL can afford at least 1.5-2 times the total raises we got under the JPWA on day one. That is my assumption, and does not include work rule changes.
Arguments like yours just make this worse and, IMO, work against our ability to get the improvements we so desperately need. I know that's not your intention... but it is the way I see it.
Last edited by DAL 88 Driver; 11-30-2010 at 12:55 PM.
11-30-2010, 01:06 PM
#3136
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
One can always hope! 
11-30-2010, 01:15 PM
#3137
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
I think you are way overstating the effect that pilot costs have in the grand scheme of things. According to APA's fact sheet from when they were asking for a partial restoration back to 1992 buying power (~50% increase), the effect on CASM at AA would have been less than 1/2 cent. Look at how much of a typical ticket price is represented by pilot costs. It's not a make or break thing for the airline. They have all kinds of large expenses that cannot be forecast precisely. Things like fuel prices, weather impacting multiple hubs at the same time multiple times throughout a particular year, etc. These are things that cannot be completely planned for, which means they have to adjust... they have to find a way to make it work. Those become priorities for them. Apparently their own compensation is a priority too. We need to make fixing our pilot compensation a priority. Unfortunately, DALPA has spent the last several years setting the tone that this does not need to be a priority... that's it's not that big of a deal. And if it's not a priority to us, then it's certainly not going to be a priority to them!
Arguments like yours just make this worse and, IMO, work against our ability to get the improvements we so desperately need. I know that's not your intention... but it is the way I see it.
Arguments like yours just make this worse and, IMO, work against our ability to get the improvements we so desperately need. I know that's not your intention... but it is the way I see it.
11-30-2010, 01:57 PM
#3138
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Correct. It does a scientific cross section. Not sure of the exact number but it does not call everyone.
When the survey is released next year, the desire is for 100% participation. The Web based survey had a horrible turnout. I do not know the specific percentage, but it was somewhere around 1/3 of the pilots
When the survey is released next year, the desire is for 100% participation. The Web based survey had a horrible turnout. I do not know the specific percentage, but it was somewhere around 1/3 of the pilots
One of the main reasons is a good 90% of the guys I fly with are convinced that ALPA doesn't give 2 poops what they say and will just do what they want.
11-30-2010, 11:44 PM
#3139
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
You've stated it acl, and many times. You've said it would put us at a competitive disadvantage and agreed with others that claim it would destroy the airline by angering other employees. You do NOT want C2K rates. Your many previous posts make that clear. Instead, your new tactic is to claim that you would love C2K rates, but there's no way to get there given the NMB and the fact that other airlines haven't set the new standard yet.
Carl
11-30-2010, 11:55 PM
#3140
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I think your "banker buddies" are overstating their involvement. I cannot imagine any business that would allow bankers to call the shots for how they allocate money in the operation of the business. What's the point in having executives at DAL if your "banker buddies" are running things? And how do these bankers have time to focus on their banking business if they're having to run major airlines on top of it all? Could there be an opportunity for "synergy" here?!
So let me see if I got this right. You agree with Sailingfun that any significant progress towards restoration would break Delta Air Lines and that more "reasonable" pay increases are all we can hope for with C2012. The APA's request for partial restoration was way too much and would be way too much for us as well. You believe the majority of our pilots see it this way too. But if you are wrong about the way the majority sees this... and the majority does indeed expect significant progress to be made toward restoration in 2012, then you "fully support" that. You think it will break Delta Air Lines, but you're okay with that as long as that's what the majority wants... even though you think it's wrong.
See, it sounds to me like you want to play both sides of this. Either you believe restoration should be our goal, or you believe it shouldn't. I don't see where you can have it both ways. Given the severity of the cuts we took, this small bites of the apple approach just doesn't get us there... ever. Maybe by the end of your career it might. But what does that do to the overall value of this career that you've worked so hard for? And for most of our pilots who only have up to 20 years left, no way. The math just doesn't work... and I think most of the argument that you, sailingfun, et al. are making is just "smoke and mirrors."
See, it sounds to me like you want to play both sides of this. Either you believe restoration should be our goal, or you believe it shouldn't. I don't see where you can have it both ways. Given the severity of the cuts we took, this small bites of the apple approach just doesn't get us there... ever. Maybe by the end of your career it might. But what does that do to the overall value of this career that you've worked so hard for? And for most of our pilots who only have up to 20 years left, no way. The math just doesn't work... and I think most of the argument that you, sailingfun, et al. are making is just "smoke and mirrors."
Carl
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