buzzpat

Agreed. The LAST thing we need is an association with SEIU. Let's just get our home loans through ACORN while we're at it.

tsquare

Can I? I'd LOVE to take their money....

sailingfun

The mediator assigned to the APA contract has removed himself to work on other projects. He has told APA when they are reasonable he will resume mediation. Without his input to the NMB they actually can't even get their case bumped up to the NMB. Putting a plan out that calls for a illegal job action is not a real plan. How did that work for the controllers. If ALPA put out a national SOS day they union would be fined out of existance in a matter of weeks.
Delta's ability to compete in the industry has no impact on me. My retirement is 100 percent divorced from the company and with the short time I plan on still being here and my seniority how the company performs will have zero effect on my. The only thing that matters is my pay rate and work rules. I do however care about other pilots and employees at the airline and the long term future of the airline is critical to them. It is also important to anyone with a retirement still tied to Delta. If you think Delta can hand out a 65 percent pay raise and hire 3000 pilots for the new work rules and continue to prosper as a airline then we will disagree. I would suspect you wont find 1 financial expert to agree the airline would prosper under those conditions.
In fact even under the current contract Delta has a far from assured future. All the CEO are watching each other like hawks waiting to see who makes the first move for a market share grab. The good news is unlike the 2001 to 2008 SWA no longer has the cost advantage their fuel hedges gave them to undercut pricing. For the first time in their history they are not growing and are sticking with the ATA limited growth plan. They can't take market share from other airlines as in the past and have had to resort to merging instead. They no longer control and set pricing in the domestic market. That and the capacity restraint the airlines are showing is why we are making money. If one airline however makes a big market share move everyone will jump back into the fray and yields will drop like a rock.
Again I think a building block approach will put more money in the DAL pilots hands and a better quality of life. You disagree and believe that if we simply demand the company will hand us a restoration contract. I think they will fight that to the bitter end and drag it out as long as possible. History has shown they have the ability and the system backing them to do exactly that.

newKnow

Sailing,

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt since there are many of us on the "hold our breath until we turn blue" group (DAL 88, Carl, Amish, et al.), and many things have been said, but you aren't even coming close to what I am saying. What I have said, I have said over and over again: we should ask for what we want. I have also stated that at this point we, as a union, should be asking for exactly what American pilots are asking for in terms of pay and what United pilots are asking for in terms of scope.

If you can't formulate a plan from my earlier posts, here it is:


Now, your "two bites at the apple" side (You, pineapple, acl, et al.) have given several reasons why you believe pursuing this course wouldn't be prudent:

1.) OUR FELLOW EMPLOYEES WILL HAVE SUCH AN ADVERSE REACTION THAT THEY IN TURN WILL TAKE IT OUT ON THE CUSTOMERS AND THEREFORE FINANCIALLY RUIN DELTA.

Even though this is pure speculation, I’m going to let it pass. Let’s say that the other Delta employees will be upset that we get paid so much and total mayhem ensues, which causes disruption at Delta. But Sailing, you can’t have your cake and eat it, too. We don’t live in a vacuum. If you assume that Delta employees would have an adverse reaction to our huge pay raises, then you MUST assume that the pilots of Deltas competitor airlines would have the same reaction. Yes. You must assume that the pilots at American, United, Us Airways, and whoever else, would be just as ****ed as the Delta employees if we got raises and you must assume that they would do just as much to harm their airline as Delta employees would harm Delta. So, at the very least there would be an offset to the harm that the non-pilot employees at Delta would cause –maybe one that is even more beneficial to Delta—right?

Why did you not factor this possibility in your equation, or did you just ignore it?


2.) DELTA AIR LINES WILL BE FINANCIALLY RUINED IF THEY AGREE TO INCREASE OUR CONTRACT BY SUCH A LARGE AMOUNT- SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY CAN’T AFFORD IT.

It seems as though your “two bites” side says that Delta simply can’t afford a $2 billion increase in pilot costs right now. But, on the other hand, you guys are more than willing to leap-frog what American pilots get, after they get it. In fact, many of you say you hope that they get full restoration, so we can pattern bargain. But, what if American’s management decides to jump off the cliff and give their pilots what they want, knowing they can’t afford it? How, in your mind, does that change anything at Delta? It seems to me that if you can’t afford a $2 billion dollar increase in cost, you can’t afford a $2 billion dollar increase in costs, no matter what American does.


Forget about the fact that, if you assume that the increased cost will ruin Delta, you also have to assume that the increased cost will ruin American first. Also, forget about the possibility of United pilots deciding to say at their current United side pay-rates. But, focus on your statements that the good credit ratings you say the company needs for aircraft financing will disappear. Do they not still disappear if both pilot groups ask for and get full restoration?

Either way, for you and others to base your negotiating starting point on what American gets defeats what seems to be one of your goals: Take small bites so Delta can survive. For you and others to say, we’ll ask for the $2 billion only when American gets restoration, shows me that, 1.) You don’t really want American pilots to get full restoration, or 2.) You secretly think that Delta can find a way to afford full restoration, or 3.) You haven’t really thought your argument through.


3.) DELTA AIRLINES WILL EXTEND NEGOTIATIONS IF WE ASK FOR TOO MUCH.

Finally, it seems that for your argument to work you need Delta Air Lines and their negotiators to have a vengeful personality where they would view an opening by us, that attempted to achieve restoration, as some type of personal insult which would send us down a slippery path to a management vs. pilot war that we could never return from. That is debatable. I would think that if we determined that the economic environment required us to back down from an opener where we asked for restoration, and we did so, Delta would be all for it.

But, either way, I believe your desire to ask for little bites and therefore take two bites at the apple is flawed. At the very least, my way is better than yours. Why? Because, with your way, once you start down the little bite path, there is no going back. If you open by asking for a little bite, you cannot come back during the negotiations and ask for a big bite later. That’s called negotiating in bad faith. If we tried to go back and ask for restoration after we opened with asking for a small bite, there is not an arbitrator, mediator, judge or jury in the land who would see our new strategy as being fair to Delta. With my way, we can always retreat to whatever your position is for whatever reason, with no repercussion.



Now, to me, it doesn’t seem that any of the above mentioned arguments you guys have against us asking for what we want hold any water. I have stated that I at least want to stand behind the American pilots and United pilots at this time, by letting their management teams know that we will not undercut them or settle for less than what they get. I have also stated that I want to let Delta Air Lines do their job. If the Delta pilot group thinks they deserve restoration, then it’s up to Delta to figure out how to pay it, explain why they can’t, or try to convince me that I’m not worth it. When we took those huge paycuts earlier this decade to save the company, NWA didn’t ask us how we would manage, we just voted them in and all pilots had to deal with it. I still don’t make what I made in 2001, but I dealt with it. Now, it’s time to ask Delta for restoration. I want to give them the chance to deal with it. Nothing should stop us from asking the question.

Unfortunately, it seems that some of you seem to think that is your job and/or the job of DALPA to tell us that we shouldn’t even ask. I cannot disagree with that position more strongly. It’s never a union’s job to make excuses for the company. They hire people to do that; I shouldn’t have to pay dues for the privilege.

I’m sure you and others will point out some misstatement or misconception I have about something or another, but it won’t change the bottom line.

iceman49

Sailing, where on the NMB web site, is the info you posted for APA? Thanks

sailingfun

New K, You miss a couple of key points. The first I will sum up simple. I listed to Leo Mullins say that he did not care if he paid each of us 1 million dollars a year as long as the the other major airlines paid the same. If the other airlines are paying close to what we are Delta can do just fine. The second point is that the other airlines will be upset if we get a large raise. I hope they are upset and I hope they work to obtain greater raises in their next contract. Like Dalpa at the present however there is little to nothing they can do about it until their amendable dates.
One thing that you also have to understand. I voted no on the current contract. However the majority voted yes. I will always support the majority unlike some who always want to take their toys and go home when they don't get their way. I can tell you from the last two surveys what I am looking for in the next contract is more not less then the majority of the pilots. Sometime next year there will be a long contract survey given to each pilot. That survey will set the basis for our opener to management. If the majority want a opener for a 65 percent raise ect.. I will support it. I think your going to find however you are not going to be happy with what they do want? Will you support a opener that does not agree with what you want but is the will of the majority?

sailingfun

The info came from a AMR captain in the van yesterday. He said he is a LEC rep. I asked what if any progress they have made. He said we have made no progress and the mediator has suspended talks with us to work on other mediations where he feels progress can be made. He went on to say they have not hired a professional team the hope can move things on the DC end. Any guess who they hired?

A quick google search turned this up. Looks like this info dated 7 Oct has come to pass.

Allied Pilots Association president Dave Bates is cautioning American Airlines pilots that the National Mediation Board may set aside the APA-AA case for a while.

The talks between the union and American just passed their four-year anniversary. Although the pace has picked up this year with a number of agreements on sections of the contract, the two sides haven't gotten to most of the substantive issues.

In a negotiations update to members Thursday, Bates wrote:

"I also want to make you aware that the National Mediation Board (NMB) has indicated it may place our mediated talks in 'recess' for an indefinite period of time due to the lack of progress in our negotiations.

"While this may or may not affect negotiations for the short term, without the NMB's involvement, there can be no release to self-help. That's the law and that's the system we have to live with.

"While we will not allow this to pressure us into accepting an inferior deal, we must also acknowledge that without the legal capability to park the jets, much of our potential ability to achieve significant contractual gains or to protect scope is lost."

Carl Spackler

Losing the right to strike in America is of huge interest to all union members. An attempt should be made to unify under this issue.

Carl

Carl Spackler

Profit margins are due in no small measure to management's effectiveness. How well they price their product and manage yield. This is NOT labor's problem. The fact that you want to "start" here shows me that your first thought is to see things through management's eyes. Then with that view, you wonder how we as labor can achieve anything substantive. That is your error acl. I know you can't see it, but that's where you're going wrong. Management does not view their actions FIRST through the eyes of labor. When we view our actions FIRST through their eyes, we lose the balance of power equation.

Complete garbage. Our management team is not beholden to banks for capital expenditure approval. Where did you get this rumor?

Carl

Carl Spackler

Not being able to strike was actually in the controllers' contract, as well as being etched in Federal law. Neither of those exist in an ALPA contract.

ALPA is operating its way out of existence as we speak. Behaving like a union means getting all like minded union members to speak out against the NMB's abuse of power. I believe this unity would be easy to achieve, but as is typical for ALPA, they don't even try. ALPA is actually using the abuse of the NMB as a shield as to why they can continue to be utterly weak and ineffective. That's the really sad truth.

Carl