Delta Pilots Association
11-27-2010, 05:55 PM
#3051
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
It has to make you wonder if when the negotiators for the American pilots walk into the room with management and ask for full restoration, if their management doesn't look back at them and say, "even if we could raise the extra cash to pay you fellas, we can't pay you that much more than Delta pilots because we wouldn't remain competitive." Then mutter under their breath, "Thank God for the Delta pilots."
This point is why Pattern Bargaining works for both the companies and for the pilots. It keeps the pilot costs relatively fixed. What killed us in the last decade was LLC's that could cherry pick routes. Now with our route networks post merger we are able to defend against that. It is the point Sailing is trying to make.
Make each pilot group pick at the pie with shorter duration contracts to stair step our way back to where we should be. Not trying to hit Grand Slams with the wind in our faces. It will end up with us at the same location in the same time, but with more agreement more frequently.
11-27-2010, 06:19 PM
#3052
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
This point is why Pattern Bargaining works for both the companies and for the pilots. It keeps the pilot costs relatively fixed. What killed us in the last decade was LLC's that could cherry pick routes. Now with our route networks post merger we are able to defend against that. It is the point Sailing is trying to make.
Make each pilot group pick at the pie with shorter duration contracts to stair step our way back to where we should be. Not trying to hit Grand Slams with the wind in our faces. It will end up with us at the same location in the same time, but with more agreement more frequently.
Make each pilot group pick at the pie with shorter duration contracts to stair step our way back to where we should be. Not trying to hit Grand Slams with the wind in our faces. It will end up with us at the same location in the same time, but with more agreement more frequently.
There are two points sailing is trying to make. One is distasteful to me, but can be discussed. The other is reprehensible and totally irritating to me.
Sailing's point #1:
We can ask for smaller increases and shorter contracts to achieve restoration, little by little.
Sailing's point #2:
If we did get full restoration we would all die a slow painful death by the hands of unwilling aircraft finance company's; jealous flight attendants, mechanics, rampers, and everyone else associated with Delta; and their jealousy would transfer over to the passengers who would kill us also. But at least we would all be furloughed and Delta would be bankrupted long before Armageddon.
That, my friend, is a total scare tactic, which for me doesn't carry much weight.
11-27-2010, 06:33 PM
#3053
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
See NewK's plan. It's simple... doesn't have all the detail filled in. But neither does yours. The difference is that NewK's plan actually defines our objective and aims to achieve it. DALPA's objective is clear as mud and, from all indications, is something considerably short of restoration.
11-27-2010, 06:34 PM
#3054
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
11-27-2010, 06:38 PM
#3055
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
If a "grand slam" is what it takes to win the game, then I'm absolutely going to try to hit it. To do anything less in that situation is just giving up... or maybe even saying you weren't trying to win in the first place.
11-27-2010, 06:47 PM
#3056
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Look forward to your response so I can study the statements of these reps.
Carl
11-27-2010, 06:51 PM
#3057
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Everything I have seen from the past and current reps has been extremely negative about the possibility of getting the kinds of increases it would take for true restoration. They say it's "unreasonable." I don't think that has anything to do with keeping your strategy secret. I think it has a lot to do with objectives that are not really in line with what this pilot group wants. That may be the only secret that's being kept.
Carl
11-27-2010, 06:53 PM
#3058
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Delta reps have been critical of APA because they have accomplished exactly nothing. When you talk of full restoration as mentioned before you are talking 2 billion a year in increased expense to Delta. Great if your senior and wont be here long. Perhaps not so great if your junior and have a lot of years ahead of you. If we achieved that type of contract there would be fallout in many areas. Delta would be unable to finance aircraft at decent rates. The other employees would quickly make Delta a far worse airline then we are even today. Customer service would be below the lows we already achieve. I think we would start to shrink and furloughs would soon follow if not another chapter 11.
I am all for restoration. I just disagree with what many post on here as to how to achieve it. Had American opened for some nice gains and signed a contract 2 years ago that would be amendable in 2012 where would we be now. It would be the benchmark contract. UAL and CAL would build off of that setting us up for bigger gains. Sadly that is now history since AMR failed to get anything done.
Still its a lesson for the future. If and that is a if we can get a contract done at or near the amendable date with reasonable gains based off the new UAL contract and SWA that puts us industry leading I think that is a far smarter method then getting iced like AMR by the NMB. We can then be exchanging openers in 2016 on the next contract with the other airlines having followed are 2012 contract. The other options is demand full restoration now. We will still be making that demand and working under the current contract in 2016. I have listened to many pilots state they will except nothing less then full restoration plus inflation. When asked to outline a strategy to achieve that you only get silence.
I want the highest quality of life and most money I can get out of Delta. I don't see asking for 2 billion a year in contract improvements as having any chance of providing that. Give me a sound strategy to achieve that and I will back it 100 percent. I have yet to hear anyone offer even a long shot method to get there.
I am all for restoration. I just disagree with what many post on here as to how to achieve it. Had American opened for some nice gains and signed a contract 2 years ago that would be amendable in 2012 where would we be now. It would be the benchmark contract. UAL and CAL would build off of that setting us up for bigger gains. Sadly that is now history since AMR failed to get anything done.
Still its a lesson for the future. If and that is a if we can get a contract done at or near the amendable date with reasonable gains based off the new UAL contract and SWA that puts us industry leading I think that is a far smarter method then getting iced like AMR by the NMB. We can then be exchanging openers in 2016 on the next contract with the other airlines having followed are 2012 contract. The other options is demand full restoration now. We will still be making that demand and working under the current contract in 2016. I have listened to many pilots state they will except nothing less then full restoration plus inflation. When asked to outline a strategy to achieve that you only get silence.
I want the highest quality of life and most money I can get out of Delta. I don't see asking for 2 billion a year in contract improvements as having any chance of providing that. Give me a sound strategy to achieve that and I will back it 100 percent. I have yet to hear anyone offer even a long shot method to get there.
Carl
11-27-2010, 06:55 PM
#3059
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
11-27-2010, 07:11 PM
#3060
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
CARL'S PLAN:
MEC Chairman flanked by negotiating committe films a web video stating the following:
1. C2K contract restoration is the number one priority in this Section 6 opener. Absolutely nothing less will be accepted.
2. Outsourcing of flying done under the Delta banner must begin to be undone. No more outsourcing contracts of any kind can be signed by management, and the existing ones cannot be extended. No exceptions.
3. All out efforts will be used at all levels of ALPA national and DALPA to put limits on the time that NMB can refuse to allow an impasse to be declared. If ever there was an issue where all our political clout must be used, this is it.
4. All pilots should begin an austerity plan today. Save up at least one year's worth of living expenses in case a strike is the only answer at the end of Section 6 negotiations.
5. Fight like hell right this second to begin this process.
And I'm just a humble greenskeeper.
Carl
MEC Chairman flanked by negotiating committe films a web video stating the following:
1. C2K contract restoration is the number one priority in this Section 6 opener. Absolutely nothing less will be accepted.
2. Outsourcing of flying done under the Delta banner must begin to be undone. No more outsourcing contracts of any kind can be signed by management, and the existing ones cannot be extended. No exceptions.
3. All out efforts will be used at all levels of ALPA national and DALPA to put limits on the time that NMB can refuse to allow an impasse to be declared. If ever there was an issue where all our political clout must be used, this is it.
4. All pilots should begin an austerity plan today. Save up at least one year's worth of living expenses in case a strike is the only answer at the end of Section 6 negotiations.
5. Fight like hell right this second to begin this process.
And I'm just a humble greenskeeper.
Carl
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