Delta Pilots Association
11-26-2010, 10:17 AM
#3031
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
If ALPA is hiding behind the NMB problem, then they should say so. In this way, we could use the national efforts of ALL unions to begin a call to action campaign for our leaders in congress to stop this abuse of power.
If ALPA believes that we have lost the right to strike due to NMB thuggery, say so. But don't say nothing and leave it to the members to try and convince our own union before we go up against management.
Carl
If ALPA believes that we have lost the right to strike due to NMB thuggery, say so. But don't say nothing and leave it to the members to try and convince our own union before we go up against management.
Carl
11-26-2010, 11:13 AM
#3032
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Knew N,
With nonsensical scope limits, we do have real exposures to market forces. Does anyone doubt that the Company (and our Union) would seek to maximize revenue if a serious threat existed to the Company's survival? Both sides would be telling us how smart it would be to utilized outsourced flying to its maximum certified capacity. (That's the OBJECTIVE limit) In a serious downturn does anyone seriously think $40 million dollar regional jets under long term contracts are going to get parked, when management already touts the flexibility provided them by operating a fully depreciated mainline narrowbody fleet that costs little more than fuel for the trip to Victorville?
(... and before the apologists start talking about 50 seaters, no, I'm talking E175's that could even replace our Latin America work)
ALPA will never come right out and say we now have to compete with the alter ego airlines they assisted in creating, but that's the truth of the matter.
With nonsensical scope limits, we do have real exposures to market forces. Does anyone doubt that the Company (and our Union) would seek to maximize revenue if a serious threat existed to the Company's survival? Both sides would be telling us how smart it would be to utilized outsourced flying to its maximum certified capacity. (That's the OBJECTIVE limit) In a serious downturn does anyone seriously think $40 million dollar regional jets under long term contracts are going to get parked, when management already touts the flexibility provided them by operating a fully depreciated mainline narrowbody fleet that costs little more than fuel for the trip to Victorville?
(... and before the apologists start talking about 50 seaters, no, I'm talking E175's that could even replace our Latin America work)
ALPA will never come right out and say we now have to compete with the alter ego airlines they assisted in creating, but that's the truth of the matter.
The really twisted part about all this newK, is that OUR UNION SHOULD BE MAKING THIS CASE TO US! Why the hell should we be trying to convince our own union, and then convince management? Why does it feel like we have two adversaries instead of just one?
Not P***ed at you, just venting about the fact that your post illustrates what a non-union feeling it is to be part of ALPA.
Carl
Not P***ed at you, just venting about the fact that your post illustrates what a non-union feeling it is to be part of ALPA.
Carl
Never let it be said that I am one who is slow to concede a point. Touche'.
I will offer a weak defense of ALPA in in that my APC disagreements on negotiating expectations are with people who are only rumored to be ALPA officials. If they are higher-ups in the organization though, they have dropped the ball. But, this still does not absolve ALPA when it does come to communications about our expectations for 2012. They have done nothing and, in my opinion, they are missing a golden opportunity. Yes, it does seem like their ineptness does at the very least make them an obstacle - another hurdle to be jumped so to speak - if not an adversary. That's pretty sad.
Bar, here is where your post comes in. My previous post states my belief that we as Delta pilots should be proclaiming that we will not be hedged in to a negotiating position because of what American Airlines pilots do or do not get. Hell, it might help them get what they want. But, we should also be offering full support for our brothers and sisters over at the new United in their efforts to end the outsourcing of our flying. Unless, I've missed it, we have been largely silent on the issue.
In my opinion, this is the perfect time for us to be:
1.) Supporting AMR pilots efforts to obtain a restoration contract by letting AMR management that Delta pilots "want it too." &
2.) Supporting United pilots efforts to get rid of the rj's by any and every means we have available to us. (Public statements, picketing along with them, etc.)
To me, the bottom line is; in 2012, Delta pilots should aim for a contract that, at a minimum, realize the gains that AMR and UAL pilots are aiming for. The bottom line is that either we want what American Airlines pilots want and we want what United Airlines pilots want, or we are willing to work for less. To me, any statement -- written, verbal, or one that can be implied by our silence -- that we are willing to accept less than them, in a very real sense, signals to their managements that we are the ones who are willing to undercut those pilot groups efforts-- and that sucks.
New K Now
11-26-2010, 02:03 PM
#3033
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 7ERB, no M88, no 7ER, no A320, NEXT!
Posts: 397
I find all of this talk about our expectations being managed, a bit silly. I have my own expectations and if the TA that is presented to me does not meet those expectations I will vote no.
Stop worrying about whether or not someone is trying to manage your expectations, and when the time comes, vote on the merits of the agreement.
Stop worrying about whether or not someone is trying to manage your expectations, and when the time comes, vote on the merits of the agreement.
11-26-2010, 02:15 PM
#3034
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
bar, here is where your post comes in. My previous post states my belief that we as delta pilots should be proclaiming that we will not be hedged in to a negotiating position because of what american airlines pilots do or do not get. Hell, it might help them get what they want. but, we should also be offering full support for our brothers and sisters over at the new united in their efforts to end the outsourcing of our flying. unless, i've missed it, we have been largely silent on the issue.
in my opinion, this is the perfect time for us to be:
1.) supporting amr pilots efforts to obtain a restoration contract by letting amr management that delta pilots "want it too." &
2.) supporting united pilots efforts to get rid of the rj's by any and every means we have available to us. (public statements, picketing along with them, etc.)
to me, the bottom line is; in 2012, delta pilots should aim for a contract that, at a minimum, realize the gains that amr and ual pilots are aiming for. The bottom line is that either we want what american airlines pilots want and we want what united airlines pilots want, or we are willing to work for less. To me, any statement -- written, verbal, or one that can be implied by our silence -- that we are willing to accept less than them, in a very real sense, signals to their managements that we are the ones who are willing to undercut those pilot groups efforts-- and that sucks.
new k now
in my opinion, this is the perfect time for us to be:
1.) supporting amr pilots efforts to obtain a restoration contract by letting amr management that delta pilots "want it too." &
2.) supporting united pilots efforts to get rid of the rj's by any and every means we have available to us. (public statements, picketing along with them, etc.)
to me, the bottom line is; in 2012, delta pilots should aim for a contract that, at a minimum, realize the gains that amr and ual pilots are aiming for. The bottom line is that either we want what american airlines pilots want and we want what united airlines pilots want, or we are willing to work for less. To me, any statement -- written, verbal, or one that can be implied by our silence -- that we are willing to accept less than them, in a very real sense, signals to their managements that we are the ones who are willing to undercut those pilot groups efforts-- and that sucks.
new k now
Last edited by Jack Bauer; 11-26-2010 at 02:38 PM.
11-26-2010, 04:46 PM
#3035
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I find all of this talk about our expectations being managed, a bit silly. I have my own expectations and if the TA that is presented to me does not meet those expectations I will vote no.
Stop worrying about whether or not someone is trying to manage your expectations, and when the time comes, vote on the merits of the agreement.
Stop worrying about whether or not someone is trying to manage your expectations, and when the time comes, vote on the merits of the agreement.
At NWA, our negotiators lowered expectations very, very far. We all thought what you thought. We'd just vote it down if we didn't like it. Then when the BK contract proffer came out, our pilots were stunned at the appearance of the negotiating committee giving away items that the company didn't even ask for. When the negotiating committee heard from the reps how furious the pilots were and that we were most likely going to vote it down, the negotiating committee came out and said: "Fine, but there is no plan B folks. If you turn this down, I don't even know what we'll do!" That's when some pilots realized that we would look even weaker in management's eyes to return to the table with negotiators that have no alternative plan to ask for more.
THAT is why it is so important for the negotiators to enter in to the fight knowing the expectations of their pilot group, and fighting like hell for them right from the start. Expectations of the rank and file are the ammunition for our negotiators.
Carl
11-26-2010, 05:55 PM
#3036
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
ALPA as a "money grubbing" organization will promote scope, not mitigate it. After all, block hours at mainline generate more dues money than any regional airline could hope to make on a per block hour basis.....
Therefore if scope is relequished it is a failure of the mainline pilots allowing it rather than ALPA National "hoping for it".
Therefore if scope is relequished it is a failure of the mainline pilots allowing it rather than ALPA National "hoping for it".
11-26-2010, 06:40 PM
#3037
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 7ERB, no M88, no 7ER, no A320, NEXT!
Posts: 397
Here's something that really needs to be discussed. This seems like a simple and reasonable thought, but in reality it puts you at a huge disadvantage. Here's why:
At NWA, our negotiators lowered expectations very, very far. We all thought what you thought. We'd just vote it down if we didn't like it. Then when the BK contract proffer came out, our pilots were stunned at the appearance of the negotiating committee giving away items that the company didn't even ask for. When the negotiating committee heard from the reps how furious the pilots were and that we were most likely going to vote it down, the negotiating committee came out and said: "Fine, but there is no plan B folks. If you turn this down, I don't even know what we'll do!" That's when some pilots realized that we would look even weaker in management's eyes to return to the table with negotiators that have no alternative plan to ask for more.
THAT is why it is so important for the negotiators to enter in to the fight knowing the expectations of their pilot group, and fighting like hell for them right from the start. Expectations of the rank and file are the ammunition for our negotiators.
Carl
At NWA, our negotiators lowered expectations very, very far. We all thought what you thought. We'd just vote it down if we didn't like it. Then when the BK contract proffer came out, our pilots were stunned at the appearance of the negotiating committee giving away items that the company didn't even ask for. When the negotiating committee heard from the reps how furious the pilots were and that we were most likely going to vote it down, the negotiating committee came out and said: "Fine, but there is no plan B folks. If you turn this down, I don't even know what we'll do!" That's when some pilots realized that we would look even weaker in management's eyes to return to the table with negotiators that have no alternative plan to ask for more.
THAT is why it is so important for the negotiators to enter in to the fight knowing the expectations of their pilot group, and fighting like hell for them right from the start. Expectations of the rank and file are the ammunition for our negotiators.
Carl
In addition, this time around we are not negotiating a bankruptcy agreement so the notion that we will be forced into something sub par because the union has no "plan b," is a little far fetched.
11-26-2010, 06:47 PM
#3038
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
The ugly fact is that it is going to take very substantial improvements to overcome the very substantial cuts we took and all the lost ground to our careers that we have endured ever since.
Does it sound to you like DALPA is up for that? I haven't heard anything that makes it sound like that to me. In fact, so far it sounds like just the contrary.
11-26-2010, 07:05 PM
#3039
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 7ERB, no M88, no 7ER, no A320, NEXT!
Posts: 397
What I'm afraid is going to happen is that they will negotiate traditional ("reasonable") improvements to our bankruptcy agreement. That will not even make so much as a dent in restoration. Talk about sub par!
The ugly fact is that it is going to take very substantial improvements to overcome the very substantial cuts we took and all the lost ground to our careers that we have endured ever since.
Does it sound to you like DALPA is up for that? I haven't heard anything that makes it sound like that to me. In fact, so far it sounds like just the contrary.
The ugly fact is that it is going to take very substantial improvements to overcome the very substantial cuts we took and all the lost ground to our careers that we have endured ever since.
Does it sound to you like DALPA is up for that? I haven't heard anything that makes it sound like that to me. In fact, so far it sounds like just the contrary.
11-26-2010, 07:40 PM
#3040
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
You likely won't see much of anything in official channels though.....It reminds me of an adage about "keeping your cards close to your chest".
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