Delta Pilots Association
11-25-2010, 09:56 AM
#3001
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Why shouldn't labor be a fixed cost?
It should be.
What if we took it a step further. What if ALPA labor was a fixed cost?
An ALPA 757 pilot at Ucal/Dal/or any ALPA carrier that operates them has a set floor.
How do we get from here to there? How can we make such a change? How does it work that this is the case with RR's?
It should be.
What if we took it a step further. What if ALPA labor was a fixed cost?
An ALPA 757 pilot at Ucal/Dal/or any ALPA carrier that operates them has a set floor.
How do we get from here to there? How can we make such a change? How does it work that this is the case with RR's?
Repeal the RLA
11-25-2010, 10:16 AM
#3002
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Still no answer to my question from a few pages back?
Restated in a different fashion: If you are not willing to ask for what you want, what are you willing to ask for? Why?
In my book, if you accept the premise of the question, you have a problem if you can't answer it BUT you still most likely have a problem even if you can answer it.
I'm still waiting for any real answer. What's your plan?
Happy Thanksgiving.
Restated in a different fashion: If you are not willing to ask for what you want, what are you willing to ask for? Why?
In my book, if you accept the premise of the question, you have a problem if you can't answer it BUT you still most likely have a problem even if you can answer it.
I'm still waiting for any real answer. What's your plan?
Happy Thanksgiving.
For us, the answer to the question is also "It depends...." The market forces that will shape our contract demands will mostly center around what other pilot groups get in the next couple of years and how much money the company is making. There are market conditions that would make C2K rates impossible and there are market conditions that would make C2K rates woefully short of the mark. Setting some target now is pointless.
Despite what M88 Driver says, no one in ALPA makes fun of the APA, it is just we hope they do something to move the market forward. They have completely failed to do anything the last few years, despite being in Section 6. So far this year, AMR corp has lost $373 million and probably will report a flat 4Q. The 3Q net profit was their first in 2 and half years and it was still one quarter. Yet they have been stuck on contract demands that would increase AMR's costs over $1.5 billion per year. Seriously, I want to hear how you think that disparity will ever get reconciled. Rather than choose an arbitrary target, maybe the APA could move forward with more modest demands with some performance kickers that could automatically give them more raises when the company rebounds.
If we set some target completely removed from market forces, then we could either undershoot what is possible, or we could be like the APA and overshoot the market and sit in the penalty box for years on end.
So the final answer to your question is "It depends...." Probably not very satisfying but it's the only one that is the truth. Surely it would be easy to make some artificially high target and proclaim myself a better pilot than the rest of you, but I would just be lying to you. Others will go ahead and give the phony bravado, but if they know for sure what the market forces are going to be two years from now, they should retire and trade stocks. They will be billionaires quite shortly.
11-25-2010, 10:38 AM
#3003
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Thanks for showing up just to put words in my mouth. 
NO, I am NOT saying that at all, but then again you knew that.
What I AM saying, is you show me a perennially profitable carrier, and I'll show you one that pays above industry average wages. It's not that labor subsidizes bad management, its that you can't get blood out of a turnip. And two quarters of profits doesn't turn a turnip into a pot of gold.
NO, I am NOT saying that at all, but then again you knew that.
What I AM saying, is you show me a perennially profitable carrier, and I'll show you one that pays above industry average wages. It's not that labor subsidizes bad management, its that you can't get blood out of a turnip. And two quarters of profits doesn't turn a turnip into a pot of gold.
Happy thanksgiving, and GO LIONS!!!!
11-25-2010, 10:39 AM
#3004
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this thisthis this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this
11-25-2010, 10:54 AM
#3005
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
I think we would all love that. Going back to regulation would be great as well being that we are more than quasi regulated now.
However, it would be interesting to see how our RR brothers work within the RLA iaw compensation and benefits. Something to research this weekend. I know that they have a retirement that is vastly different, I just don't have the facts. Maybe we can look to them instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. As the saying goes....God gave you eyes, so plagerize.
Also, we need a contract comparison study to our Sky Team breathern.
Ok, I haven't seen the Lions win on Thxgvng in how long. Time for the fourth qtr. Have a great holiday.
However, it would be interesting to see how our RR brothers work within the RLA iaw compensation and benefits. Something to research this weekend. I know that they have a retirement that is vastly different, I just don't have the facts. Maybe we can look to them instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. As the saying goes....God gave you eyes, so plagerize.
Also, we need a contract comparison study to our Sky Team breathern.Ok, I haven't seen the Lions win on Thxgvng in how long. Time for the fourth qtr. Have a great holiday.
11-25-2010, 12:15 PM
#3007
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Hey, it's "Mr. M88 Driver" to you! 
And yes, I have definitely seen and heard both ALPA officials and ALPA supporters making very derogatory and condescending comments about APA. I'm not going to go back and retrieve a bunch of quotes. I think you can just go back and review this very thread and find plenty of examples.
One thing I definitely agree with you on... There are way too many variables to predict the future with any certainty.
Up until recently, airline pilots had a bigger piece of the pie (okay, I can't even think about pie right now!). We are no less important today than we were for decades before this past one. Some of those variables need to be shuffled around and properly compensating us needs to have a higher priority than it does right now. I want the folks representing me to be making the case for this, not making the case for why it supposedly cannot happen.
And yes, I have definitely seen and heard both ALPA officials and ALPA supporters making very derogatory and condescending comments about APA. I'm not going to go back and retrieve a bunch of quotes. I think you can just go back and review this very thread and find plenty of examples.One thing I definitely agree with you on... There are way too many variables to predict the future with any certainty.
Up until recently, airline pilots had a bigger piece of the pie (okay, I can't even think about pie right now!). We are no less important today than we were for decades before this past one. Some of those variables need to be shuffled around and properly compensating us needs to have a higher priority than it does right now. I want the folks representing me to be making the case for this, not making the case for why it supposedly cannot happen.
11-25-2010, 01:30 PM
#3008
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Hey, it's "Mr. M88 Driver" to you! And yes, I have definitely seen and heard both ALPA officials and ALPA supporters making very derogatory and condescending comments about APA. I'm not going to go back and retrieve a bunch of quotes. I think you can just go back and review this very thread and find plenty of examples.
One thing I definitely agree with you on... There are way too many variables to predict the future with any certainty.
Up until recently, airline pilots had a bigger piece of the pie (okay, I can't even think about pie right now!). We are no less important today than we were for decades before this past one. Some of those variables need to be shuffled around and properly compensating us needs to have a higher priority than it does right now. I want the folks representing me to be making the case for this, not making the case for why it supposedly cannot happen.
And yes, I have definitely seen and heard both ALPA officials and ALPA supporters making very derogatory and condescending comments about APA. I'm not going to go back and retrieve a bunch of quotes. I think you can just go back and review this very thread and find plenty of examples.One thing I definitely agree with you on... There are way too many variables to predict the future with any certainty.
Up until recently, airline pilots had a bigger piece of the pie (okay, I can't even think about pie right now!). We are no less important today than we were for decades before this past one. Some of those variables need to be shuffled around and properly compensating us needs to have a higher priority than it does right now. I want the folks representing me to be making the case for this, not making the case for why it supposedly cannot happen.
Forgive me if I don't expound on these points as I'm typing on my iPad whilst watching the cowgirls lose badly. I'm also contemplating the pizza il be having for thanksgiving dinner. At least there are some slightly overweigh Brazilian chicks at the pool. Oh joy.
11-25-2010, 01:38 PM
#3009
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
I think we would all love that. Going back to regulation would be great as well being that we are more than quasi regulated now.
However, it would be interesting to see how our RR brothers work within the RLA iaw compensation and benefits. Something to research this weekend. I know that they have a retirement that is vastly different, I just don't have the facts. Maybe we can look to them instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. As the saying goes....God gave you eyes, so plagerize. Also, we need a contract comparison study to our Sky Team breathern.
Ok, I haven't seen the Lions win on Thxgvng in how long. Time for the fourth qtr. Have a great holiday.
However, it would be interesting to see how our RR brothers work within the RLA iaw compensation and benefits. Something to research this weekend. I know that they have a retirement that is vastly different, I just don't have the facts. Maybe we can look to them instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. As the saying goes....God gave you eyes, so plagerize.
Also, we need a contract comparison study to our Sky Team breathern.Ok, I haven't seen the Lions win on Thxgvng in how long. Time for the fourth qtr. Have a great holiday.
So that 25 or 30 dollars an hour posted a few pages pack under that calculation turns out to be quite a rate per that kind of "day".
11-25-2010, 02:51 PM
#3010
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl...
How can you, in all good conscience, argue facts with someone who in such a short career, have gained SO much knowledge?(grin)
Seriously...between going from where he was to where he is...and where he's going to be...he has not only accumulated thousands of hours of experience (well in excess of yours and your bretheren), full knowledge of the industry and ALPA (which YOU could have had you not been just snoozing since the 70's) and on top of all that, has gained financial and contractual accumen beyond the capabilities of all.
Didn't ALPA recently have a guy like that on the magazine as their "poster child?"
Prediction: He will, singlehandedly convert EVERY pilot at SWAPA. You read it here first!
Couple of thoughts. A few elections back, a UAL committee chairman asked Babbitt a simple question. "Do you know WHY we elected you?"
Randy, in his usual style, waxed upon his experience, dedication and background.
The Captain...one of their first 777 guys said, "No. We elected you to go to jail. We elected you to have a set of balls and stand up to management and the judge if necessary. To tell the judge, "where and when do I show up," while telling your lawyers, "my feet better not cross the jailhouse steps." THATS what we elected you for."
Needless to say, he was shocked.
Unless you have a union president who understands that, you're right...you haven't got a union, you have an association.
As far as APA and the contract with IPSC...understand that it is the FIRST contract that IPSC has ever gotten in the years it has been in existence.
Now that is no reflection on Seth...he's a good guy. However the inability of IPSC to get any business over the years shows a lack of confidence by others in the ability of ALPA to deliver on the product. Were this not the case, IPSC would have had people banging on the doors of the 8th Floor begging for assistance.
Oh wait...most of the 8th Floor got sold off to pay the bills.
How can you, in all good conscience, argue facts with someone who in such a short career, have gained SO much knowledge?(grin)
Seriously...between going from where he was to where he is...and where he's going to be...he has not only accumulated thousands of hours of experience (well in excess of yours and your bretheren), full knowledge of the industry and ALPA (which YOU could have had you not been just snoozing since the 70's) and on top of all that, has gained financial and contractual accumen beyond the capabilities of all.
Didn't ALPA recently have a guy like that on the magazine as their "poster child?"
Prediction: He will, singlehandedly convert EVERY pilot at SWAPA. You read it here first!
Couple of thoughts. A few elections back, a UAL committee chairman asked Babbitt a simple question. "Do you know WHY we elected you?"
Randy, in his usual style, waxed upon his experience, dedication and background.
The Captain...one of their first 777 guys said, "No. We elected you to go to jail. We elected you to have a set of balls and stand up to management and the judge if necessary. To tell the judge, "where and when do I show up," while telling your lawyers, "my feet better not cross the jailhouse steps." THATS what we elected you for."
Needless to say, he was shocked.
Unless you have a union president who understands that, you're right...you haven't got a union, you have an association.
As far as APA and the contract with IPSC...understand that it is the FIRST contract that IPSC has ever gotten in the years it has been in existence.
Now that is no reflection on Seth...he's a good guy. However the inability of IPSC to get any business over the years shows a lack of confidence by others in the ability of ALPA to deliver on the product. Were this not the case, IPSC would have had people banging on the doors of the 8th Floor begging for assistance.
Oh wait...most of the 8th Floor got sold off to pay the bills.
So you see, IPSC is responsible for all the industry's positive contracts, but retired for the bad ones.
Happy Thanksgiving to you!
Carl
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