Delta Pilots Association
11-25-2010, 06:43 AM
#2991
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
If you're not going to even read what I write, then you should probably just go away. If you actually cared to read what I write, you would see that I never said management hides money. That's your attempt to change the subject from your patently ignorant statement that "revenue is largely irrelevant." What I did say is that it is very easy for corporations to use perfectly legal accounting rules to show a loss even in the face of strong revenue. What is much harder to do is hide revenue. Revenue is THE key metric for any business. That's why your statement that "revenue is largely irrelevant" is so ignorant. Spoken by a person who knows nothing about running a business.
Again, if you thought before you posted, you would know that you are the only one talking about hidden money.
You know nothing of AMR or APA's current condition. You have no idea what is, or is not in the cards for APA or AMR. If we are even to believe you are who you infer, you're just a pilot who thinks he's plugged in now that you have a job at ALPA national. Take a business class or two while you're there not working.
Carl
Again, if you thought before you posted, you would know that you are the only one talking about hidden money.
You know nothing of AMR or APA's current condition. You have no idea what is, or is not in the cards for APA or AMR. If we are even to believe you are who you infer, you're just a pilot who thinks he's plugged in now that you have a job at ALPA national. Take a business class or two while you're there not working.
Carl
How can you, in all good conscience, argue facts with someone who in such a short career, have gained SO much knowledge?(grin)
Seriously...between going from where he was to where he is...and where he's going to be...he has not only accumulated thousands of hours of experience (well in excess of yours and your bretheren), full knowledge of the industry and ALPA (which YOU could have had you not been just snoozing since the 70's) and on top of all that, has gained financial and contractual accumen beyond the capabilities of all.
Didn't ALPA recently have a guy like that on the magazine as their "poster child?"
Prediction: He will, singlehandedly convert EVERY pilot at SWAPA. You read it here first!
Couple of thoughts. A few elections back, a UAL committee chairman asked Babbitt a simple question. "Do you know WHY we elected you?"
Randy, in his usual style, waxed upon his experience, dedication and background.
The Captain...one of their first 777 guys said, "No. We elected you to go to jail. We elected you to have a set of balls and stand up to management and the judge if necessary. To tell the judge, "where and when do I show up," while telling your lawyers, "my feet better not cross the jailhouse steps." THATS what we elected you for."
Needless to say, he was shocked.
Unless you have a union president who understands that, you're right...you haven't got a union, you have an association.
As far as APA and the contract with IPSC...understand that it is the FIRST contract that IPSC has ever gotten in the years it has been in existence.
Now that is no reflection on Seth...he's a good guy. However the inability of IPSC to get any business over the years shows a lack of confidence by others in the ability of ALPA to deliver on the product. Were this not the case, IPSC would have had people banging on the doors of the 8th Floor begging for assistance.
Oh wait...most of the 8th Floor got sold off to pay the bills.
11-25-2010, 07:24 AM
#2992
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Fair enough - but see below.
I can only speak for DAL. I was hired in the late 80's and the early 90s contract had modest raises. By today's standard, that's a boom. Then the 1996 contract had a 2% paycut, followed with a 4-year, no raise, contract. That a bust by my definition. Then the 2001 contract had about a 30% raise. That's a boom by my definition. Then our pre-bankruptcy and bankruptcy contracts had a combined 42% paycut, and a pension termination. That's a bust by my definition. And I'll call the JCBA a wash.
So, in my 20 years, five contracts have been boom-bust-boom-bust-wash. Pretty much just what slow was claiming to be true. I can't speak for how those twenty years played out at NWA.
DAL88, where are you? Carl states that modest increases, which were in reality modest decreases when adjusted for inflation, are something to be proud of. Eerily similar to LM claiming that we are now back to pre-bankruptcy pay rates, don't you think? Hmmm. Could it be??? Is Carl really a pseudonym for our very own LM? Things that make you go Hmmm.
I can only speak for DAL. I was hired in the late 80's and the early 90s contract had modest raises. By today's standard, that's a boom. Then the 1996 contract had a 2% paycut, followed with a 4-year, no raise, contract. That a bust by my definition. Then the 2001 contract had about a 30% raise. That's a boom by my definition. Then our pre-bankruptcy and bankruptcy contracts had a combined 42% paycut, and a pension termination. That's a bust by my definition. And I'll call the JCBA a wash.
So, in my 20 years, five contracts have been boom-bust-boom-bust-wash. Pretty much just what slow was claiming to be true. I can't speak for how those twenty years played out at NWA.
DAL88, where are you? Carl states that modest increases, which were in reality modest decreases when adjusted for inflation, are something to be proud of. Eerily similar to LM claiming that we are now back to pre-bankruptcy pay rates, don't you think? Hmmm. Could it be??? Is Carl really a pseudonym for our very own LM? Things that make you go Hmmm.
I'm enjoying Thanksgiving with my family. Hope you are too!
I think the problem with your argument is your use of the "boom and bust" concept. Here are the definitions of "boom" and "bust" I found as they relate to business:
Boom - To grow, develop, or progress rapidly; flourish: "Business is booming."
Bust - A state of bankruptcy. A time or period of widespread financial depression.
I don't think a 2% pay cut would meet most people's understanding of a "bust", especially when you consider the actual definition of the term. Certainly, a 30% increase could be considered a "boom" under the right circumstances. However, as you point out, our buying power was in a slow, steady decline (even though actual rates were going up or remaining stagnant) in your chart. It could be argued that the 30% increase with C2K was simply a correction to get our profession back on track to where it should be. That's the way I see it. A 42% pay cut, loss of pension, and having thousands of jobs outsourced would I think most definitely be considered a huge "bust" in most people's view. But those were both anomalies, not a normal part of a cycle.
I would write more, but I'm going to enjoy Thanksgiving with my family. I hope everyone else here is able to do the same today! No matter how poorly our careers have gone in recent years, there is much more to life than our jobs. I hope everyone will spend the day focusing on all the many things in life we have to be thankful for. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!
11-25-2010, 10:06 AM
#2996
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.
11-25-2010, 10:31 AM
#2997
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
You tell me. Just why DOES SWA pay more than DAL (at the moment)?
Could it have anything to do with $5,466,000 compared to ($14,371,000) ?
hint: click DAL Balance Sheet | Delta Air Lines Inc. (New) Comm Stock - Yahoo! Finance
Could it have anything to do with $5,466,000 compared to ($14,371,000) ?
hint: click DAL Balance Sheet | Delta Air Lines Inc. (New) Comm Stock - Yahoo! Finance
11-25-2010, 10:37 AM
#2998
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
NO, I am NOT saying that at all, but then again you knew that.
What I AM saying, is you show me a perennially profitable carrier, and I'll show you one that pays above industry average wages. It's not that labor subsidizes bad management, its that you can't get blood out of a turnip. And two quarters of profits doesn't turn a turnip into a pot of gold.
11-25-2010, 10:51 AM
#2999
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
It should be.
What if we took it a step further. What if ALPA labor was a fixed cost?
An ALPA 757 pilot at Ucal/Dal/or any ALPA carrier that operates them has a set floor.
How do we get from here to there? How can we make such a change? How does it work that this is the case with RR's?
11-25-2010, 10:53 AM
#3000
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: non acceptus excretus
Posts: 561
Let us also remember the aircraft lease cost game as to why we have had our pay rates destroyed. An airline seldom remains particularly profitable for long, in that the major shareholders in a given airline usually have a leasing company of their own or have an "influencing position" with an aircraft lessor or financing group. That situation results in continual restructuring of the aircraft cost to the airline which is almost always the highest cost on an airlines books, above fuel and labor. When the airline shows a profit for "too long" the airline officers harvest their bonuses and stock options(immediately liquidated of course) and then the lease payments at the airline go up dramatically. Then the airline looks like it is barely profitable,,,,Guess what management says no money for pilot payraises....This song repeats itself over and over within the industry some capital schemes are more obvious than others,, but the lease rates mysteriously go up about time to tell the pilots that there is no money for us...The biggest adjustment made in the industry's last round oc CH11's was in leases(dollar volume no %'s) Wages of pilots didn't bankrupt anybody,,,The moral of the story is don't try to be reasonable they will only use that against you make them find the money to pay pilots properly.
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