Delta Pilots Association
09-21-2010, 12:39 PM
#291
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
I understand that...but it doesn't change the fact that Compass was the *best* opportunity Delta pilots had to recapture the large small jet flying that apparently is the biggest threat to their careers.
And they seemingly walked away from it without a second thought.
If Compass had been kept under mainline ALPA, wouldn't it have strengthened DALPA's their case for accreting that flying? Sure, DALPA would have had to take the Compass pilots too (which apparently will happen anyway) but I imagine a staple along with some sort of fence could have been negotiated.
I'll be the first to admit I don't know the ins & outs of Compass/Delta/NWA and certainly don't know the internal politics...but at least for a while, Compass was owned by Delta and their pilots represented by DALPA (unlike Comair & Mesaba)...I'm not sure the process going forward will be any less complicated than that.
And they seemingly walked away from it without a second thought.
If Compass had been kept under mainline ALPA, wouldn't it have strengthened DALPA's their case for accreting that flying? Sure, DALPA would have had to take the Compass pilots too (which apparently will happen anyway) but I imagine a staple along with some sort of fence could have been negotiated.
I'll be the first to admit I don't know the ins & outs of Compass/Delta/NWA and certainly don't know the internal politics...but at least for a while, Compass was owned by Delta and their pilots represented by DALPA (unlike Comair & Mesaba)...I'm not sure the process going forward will be any less complicated than that.
09-21-2010, 12:41 PM
#292
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Position: C560XL/XLS/XLS+
Posts: 1,278
This thread is going to drift off into speculative nonsense and irrelevancy if someone doesn't step up and speak on behalf of DPA. I don't know if it will be one of the 3 named officers or someone else, but it better be soon.
If that website is all they got, it will be a darn shame.
Tim? Frank? Ira?
If that website is all they got, it will be a darn shame.
Tim? Frank? Ira?
09-21-2010, 12:41 PM
#293
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,619
If Compass & Delta had merged then one NC would be representing both merging pilot groups. This would be a problem, as there were pilots who had been at Compass longer then some pilots had been at NWA/DAL. Do you see the conflict of interest now? How would protect the interests of each group when you represent both of them? Do you recall the whole RJDC mess? Comair guys wanting DOH? Lawsuits coming about?
There may have been some Compass pilots with a DOH before the most junior DAL/NWA pilot, but they also had no reasonable expectation to fly any airframe at Compass larger than the E175. As such, a staple with bump/flush fence protections for Compass captains would have been reasonable; I seem to recall a good number of Compass pilots advocating that very thing on aviation webboards prior to being cast out of DALPA.
Comair & Mesaba may have had the same union, but they weren't under the NWA-DALPA MEC like Compass was. That does mean something...
Do you think Compass pilots would rather have been stapled to the bottom of the DAL/NWA combined seniority list after their flying was accreted by Delta mainline, or sold to Hulas to be with new cousins TSA and GoJet like what actually went down?
How can one reasonably expect any union representation, ALPA or DPA or otherwise, to recapture small jet scope when the *best* possible scenario that will ever present itself wasn't acted on? It'll never get any easier, or any cheaper than Compass would have been...
09-21-2010, 12:47 PM
#294
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
It's not a total loss though, as DALPA has successfully built several layers of furlough protection that still exist even with the sale. I too feel that we lost out on a golden opportunity to recapture the 76 seat flying though.
09-21-2010, 12:51 PM
#295
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
You see the hierarchy as a pilot:
1. Mainline
2. Regional
3. 135
4. Flight Instructor
5. Private
The legal system does not make such distinctions; that's the problem. If a regional pilot does not think a staple job is fair he can sue for higher seniority. This is where it gets ugly.
09-21-2010, 01:17 PM
#296
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
Ari Emanuel Is Hollywood’s New Big Man on Campus, But What Is He After?
By MICHAEL CIEPLY AND BROOKS BARNES
J. Emilio Flores/The New York Times Ariel Z. Emanuel, Hollywood’s new big man on campus.
Ari Emanuel, who was the chief engineer behind the April merger of two of Hollywood’s top talent agencies into the mega-agency William Morris Endeavor Entertainment, has emerged as Hollywood’s top power-broker — a position that has been open for many years, probably since the days that colorful moguls like Michael Ovitz and David Geffen towered over the town. It doesn’t hurt, of course, that his brother happens to be Rahm Emanuel, President Obama’s chief of staff. But this has left everyone else in Hollywood wondering just what Mr. Emanuel wants and how he will use his power to shape the entertainment industry of the 21st century.
Here is a report from Monday’s front page of The New York Times.
This pilot group would become their bigge$t client if they handled the "at the table" negotiations.
Remember: Negotiating is ALL about managing emotions. Those that can manipulate them the best win.
Remember: When the BK lounge shows were going on and the ? of "what happens if we don't vote for this and send it back like Hawaiian just did, then what" came up.
A case of beer to the first person who can provide the quote that came out of the office type that was attending.
By MICHAEL CIEPLY AND BROOKS BARNES
J. Emilio Flores/The New York Times Ariel Z. Emanuel, Hollywood’s new big man on campus.Ari Emanuel, who was the chief engineer behind the April merger of two of Hollywood’s top talent agencies into the mega-agency William Morris Endeavor Entertainment, has emerged as Hollywood’s top power-broker — a position that has been open for many years, probably since the days that colorful moguls like Michael Ovitz and David Geffen towered over the town. It doesn’t hurt, of course, that his brother happens to be Rahm Emanuel, President Obama’s chief of staff. But this has left everyone else in Hollywood wondering just what Mr. Emanuel wants and how he will use his power to shape the entertainment industry of the 21st century.
Here is a report from Monday’s front page of The New York Times.
This pilot group would become their bigge$t client if they handled the "at the table" negotiations.
Remember: Negotiating is ALL about managing emotions. Those that can manipulate them the best win.
Remember: When the BK lounge shows were going on and the ? of "what happens if we don't vote for this and send it back like Hawaiian just did, then what" came up.
A case of beer to the first person who can provide the quote that came out of the office type that was attending.
09-21-2010, 01:31 PM
#297
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
This is where I disagree. If you ask 100 RJ pilots, 99 will say that they hope that RJ's shrink and mainline grows. Look at their contracts, their jobs really are much worse than ours, they all want to go to mainline.
Focusing on RJ growth right now is akin to focusing on the Soviet menace invading western Europe. It's over. Industry consolidation is here. After CAL/UAL get together then AMR will have to make some move. They will all face the same phenomenon as what happened at Delta. A larger carrier will need larger jets. In case you haven't noticed, RJ's are falling away like flies. They are undergoing massive consolidation now, (probably forced by their parent carriers) because the ones that don't consolidate will die. Comair is shrinking by half and we are hiring. Delta's RJ capacity shrunk 4.4% last quarter and will probably be more than that this quarter.
So if you want to change unions because of the RJ menace, you need to invent a time machine and go back to the 1990's because you are 20 years too late. That problem is over. If you have other reasons to get a new union then discuss that. The dual agenda at National never existed except in webboard warriors minds and even if it did, perestroika has come.
Focusing on RJ growth right now is akin to focusing on the Soviet menace invading western Europe. It's over. Industry consolidation is here. After CAL/UAL get together then AMR will have to make some move. They will all face the same phenomenon as what happened at Delta. A larger carrier will need larger jets. In case you haven't noticed, RJ's are falling away like flies. They are undergoing massive consolidation now, (probably forced by their parent carriers) because the ones that don't consolidate will die. Comair is shrinking by half and we are hiring. Delta's RJ capacity shrunk 4.4% last quarter and will probably be more than that this quarter.
So if you want to change unions because of the RJ menace, you need to invent a time machine and go back to the 1990's because you are 20 years too late. That problem is over. If you have other reasons to get a new union then discuss that. The dual agenda at National never existed except in webboard warriors minds and even if it did, perestroika has come.
Correct, and to add a point. Stating that CAPA will represent mainline carriers is like stating that a seat segment is below you which is kind of against the entire theory. It is also against unity and a basic tenant of trade unionism.
Just saying
09-21-2010, 01:43 PM
#298
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
not exactly. Rj growth of 50 seaters? You would be right. Of course since you are right and that sector is dyig a horrible painful drawn out death, it should be more than reasonable to get in writing what is happening anyway (zero cost item) but we have to focus on it. But this is about the insane onslaught of 70, 76 and in a few cases (usair, airtran soon and even the currently unused ual loop hole) 86 seat jets and of course, bigger ones. Especially common type bigger ones (e190/195) but even next gen bigger rj's are a hard core in our face threat. You can better believe focusing on (outsourced) rj growth is one of the top priorities of our generation.
As for consolidation, the regionals are consolidating as well. And they have management's with hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank and massive pilot groups with mec's chomping at the bit to crack that next seat range by any means necessary. You can better believe focusing on (outsourced) rj growth is the top priority. The only issue that may tie it is tightening up the loop holes for fireign and domestic code shares and interlining. But rj scope is a bfd.
As for consolidation, the regionals are consolidating as well. And they have management's with hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank and massive pilot groups with mec's chomping at the bit to crack that next seat range by any means necessary. You can better believe focusing on (outsourced) rj growth is the top priority. The only issue that may tie it is tightening up the loop holes for fireign and domestic code shares and interlining. But rj scope is a bfd.
09-21-2010, 01:48 PM
#299
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,619
No, I'm not.
No, I don't. You obviously weren't paying attention to what I wrote.
While I appreciate the lesson, I have a much deeper understanding of labor law & DFR suits than you might believe.
AWA/LCC proves that *any* pilot who doesn't think their list integration is fair can sue (or decertify their union and form another) for higher seniority...its not limited to a regional/major integration in any way, shape or form.
There are plenty of ways a negotiated staple of Compass pilots to the DAL seniority list would have not only been acceptable to the vast majority (if not all) of Compass pilots, but would have easily withstood any potential legal challenges against it.
Think about it - why would Delta pilots who are so concerned about about E190s being outsourced and not even make an attempt to secure the common-type E175s that were flown by pilots who were already represented by DALPA?
I'm reading the words written here, but recent actions (or lack thereof) by Delta pilots and their elected leadership really don't support them...
You see the hierarchy as a pilot:
1. Mainline
2. Regional
3. 135
4. Flight Instructor
5. Private
1. Mainline
2. Regional
3. 135
4. Flight Instructor
5. Private
If a regional pilot does not think a staple job is fair he can sue for higher seniority. This is where it gets ugly.
AWA/LCC proves that *any* pilot who doesn't think their list integration is fair can sue (or decertify their union and form another) for higher seniority...its not limited to a regional/major integration in any way, shape or form.
There are plenty of ways a negotiated staple of Compass pilots to the DAL seniority list would have not only been acceptable to the vast majority (if not all) of Compass pilots, but would have easily withstood any potential legal challenges against it.
Think about it - why would Delta pilots who are so concerned about about E190s being outsourced and not even make an attempt to secure the common-type E175s that were flown by pilots who were already represented by DALPA?
I'm reading the words written here, but recent actions (or lack thereof) by Delta pilots and their elected leadership really don't support them...
09-21-2010, 03:11 PM
#300
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
I submit as exhibit #1. The RJDC.
I submit as exhibit #2. The JC Lawson Affair.
Etc.,
etc.
It has been thrown in our face over and over again. ALPA National helped foster this environment that we have today. It is reality.
As someone who spent a significant amount of time at a regional and now some time at Delta, how do you propose that we fix the problem. Reach out and keep trying the unity angle? Serious ?.
I'm thinking that strategically, ALPA blundered in what now might be an unrecoverable way. Their constituents are divided and have vastly different agendas and needs while the major air carriers are watching the "wealth" be redistributed.
If it is not Delta, the chances are it will be UAL/CAL that will vote with their feet. Do we want to be left holding the bag when that happens.
Recall the latest settlement ALPA had with the UAL retirees. As I underdstand it there is more pending litigation of that nature. How will that effect the largest dues paying members of ALPA?
In a nut shell, it is not a bad thing to identify the exit prior to when this beatch goes up in flames and starts caving in. It is worth studying in the least and might provide the leverage for change that is being stone walled.
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