Delta Pilots Association
11-24-2010, 01:56 PM
#2961
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
FTB,
I don't quite understand the logic on the snap-back statement. Snap-backs are given in return for concessions, in case the company does better than estimated, in the future. If you're after improvements, or getting imporvements, you generally don't want snap-backs. The company might want snap-back-downs, but I don't see how/why we could have negotiated snapbacks in LOA 19. We needed them in LOA 46 and 51, but those were the bend-over contracts, remember? It's pretty clear to me why we didn't get them back then. Was that before your time?
The mechanism often used to get more when times are better, when used in conjuction with contractual improvements, is often profit-sharing, something we already negotiated. I'd like it to be more, but the kind of variable adjustment you describe is already present, even if not enough in amplitude.
I don't quite understand the logic on the snap-back statement. Snap-backs are given in return for concessions, in case the company does better than estimated, in the future. If you're after improvements, or getting imporvements, you generally don't want snap-backs. The company might want snap-back-downs, but I don't see how/why we could have negotiated snapbacks in LOA 19. We needed them in LOA 46 and 51, but those were the bend-over contracts, remember? It's pretty clear to me why we didn't get them back then. Was that before your time?
The mechanism often used to get more when times are better, when used in conjuction with contractual improvements, is often profit-sharing, something we already negotiated. I'd like it to be more, but the kind of variable adjustment you describe is already present, even if not enough in amplitude.
That little part about how many orders I made is really up to the company and in la la land. Now I think our profit sharing is on more firm ground than that but I'll never trust it.
If you want to go outside the box, when I was a corporate pilot I was also a sales guy. I managed what charters we did and ran the risk of achieving my goal was to get about 30 hours a month or blowing it by turning down bad trips. I was paid a nice base salary and then a per hour 'commission' off the hours I flew in which the boss made money. The boss was no idiot, he was an immigrant with a 6th grade education now worth about a half a billion dollars. He understood how to motivate people and by tying my income to his, we were on the same page- just like any other sales job. The current system industry wide doesn't put the employee and employer on the same page.
I don't advocate changing an established system but if you told a 5th year pilot (any plane) he'll make $50,000 a year base salary and $.35 per available seat per hour then it'd work out like this:
5th year = $50,000. Then MD88 pilot flies 150 passengers. 150pax x $0.35 = $52.5/flight hour. Pilot flies 70 hours a month (840 in a year). So $50,000 + $52.5 x 840 = $94,100.
$94,100 equals $112.02/flt hr, but currently 5th year 88 FO is $92.57.
Now what happens when times our bad, shrink hours available and pilot costs decrease. If things are bad then you're stuck furloughing.
What about reserve pilots, they get $X per day that they're available whether used or not or the higher of the flight hours flown.
If the company is doing well, surcharges per hour.
That'd be a system flexible to the business environment. Not what we have now. But that's just what I've done and seen not what's practical given the dinosaur nature of our industry today.
11-24-2010, 01:59 PM
#2962
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: Boeing Boss
Posts: 335
Here are some commuter rail examples within the same region: Locomotive engineers' hourly rate is $27.24 at Amtrak, $29.92 at Long Island RR, $25.73 at New Jersey Transit. The trackman rate is $16.31 at Amtrak, $19.03 at Metra (Illinois), $20.42 at SEPTA (Philadelphia), $23.33 at Long Island.
If you want to compare the differences at UP, BNSF, CSX, or any of the local freights...go to their websites and post the various rates. And those rates have varied over the years as the state of the economy has varied.
Got a better example?
11-24-2010, 02:06 PM
#2963
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
The thing about profit sharing that bothers me is it reminds me of a sales job where you go out and pitch a product the customer orders with the company and then the company tells you how much they ordered and here is your commission.
That little part about how many orders I made is really up to the company and in la la land. Now I think our profit sharing is on more firm ground than that but I'll never trust it.
If you want to go outside the box, when I was a corporate pilot I was also a sales guy. I managed what charters we did and ran the risk of achieving my goal was to get about 30 hours a month or blowing it by turning down bad trips. I was paid a nice base salary and then a per hour 'commission' off the hours I flew in which the boss made money. The boss was no idiot, he was an immigrant with a 6th grade education now worth about a half a billion dollars. He understood how to motivate people and by tying my income to his, we were on the same page- just like any other sales job. The current system industry wide doesn't put the employee and employer on the same page.
I don't advocate changing an established system but if you told a 5th year pilot (any plane) he'll make $50,000 a year base salary and $.35 per available seat per hour then it'd work out like this:
5th year = $50,000. Then MD88 pilot flies 150 passengers. 150pax x $0.35 = $52.5/flight hour. Pilot flies 70 hours a month (840 in a year). So $50,000 + $52.5 x 840 = $94,100.
$94,100 equals $112.02/flt hr, but currently 5th year 88 FO is $92.57.
Now what happens when times our bad, shrink hours available and pilot costs decrease. If things are bad then you're stuck furloughing.
What about reserve pilots, they get $X per day that they're available whether used or not or the higher of the flight hours flown.
If the company is doing well, surcharges per hour.
That'd be a system flexible to the business environment. Not what we have now. But that's just what I've done and seen not what's practical given the dinosaur nature of our industry today.
That little part about how many orders I made is really up to the company and in la la land. Now I think our profit sharing is on more firm ground than that but I'll never trust it.
If you want to go outside the box, when I was a corporate pilot I was also a sales guy. I managed what charters we did and ran the risk of achieving my goal was to get about 30 hours a month or blowing it by turning down bad trips. I was paid a nice base salary and then a per hour 'commission' off the hours I flew in which the boss made money. The boss was no idiot, he was an immigrant with a 6th grade education now worth about a half a billion dollars. He understood how to motivate people and by tying my income to his, we were on the same page- just like any other sales job. The current system industry wide doesn't put the employee and employer on the same page.
I don't advocate changing an established system but if you told a 5th year pilot (any plane) he'll make $50,000 a year base salary and $.35 per available seat per hour then it'd work out like this:
5th year = $50,000. Then MD88 pilot flies 150 passengers. 150pax x $0.35 = $52.5/flight hour. Pilot flies 70 hours a month (840 in a year). So $50,000 + $52.5 x 840 = $94,100.
$94,100 equals $112.02/flt hr, but currently 5th year 88 FO is $92.57.
Now what happens when times our bad, shrink hours available and pilot costs decrease. If things are bad then you're stuck furloughing.
What about reserve pilots, they get $X per day that they're available whether used or not or the higher of the flight hours flown.
If the company is doing well, surcharges per hour.
That'd be a system flexible to the business environment. Not what we have now. But that's just what I've done and seen not what's practical given the dinosaur nature of our industry today.
The fact we don't control the books, however tells me the imperfect system where we have to sign up for 3-4 years of a contract based on the past and present, amybe the system we're stuck with. I've never seen any alternatives. Maybe a six-year contract that fixes the big items, with a short renegotiation window on a few (specific) items every two years? I don't know how we could make something like that work in our favor because the RLA makes getting to the illusion of a strike so very, very lengthy. After all, the stated prupose of the act was stability, and stability they got.
So I don't feel super strongly either way. I'm open to better ideas, in terms of deciding how we base our proposals, and how we account for economics ups and downs... if they're out there.
...
On that note, you're all sort of like brothers form another mother to me, but I think I'm going to prioritize the actual family over the virtual kind for a few days... so Happy Thanksgiving to all.
11-24-2010, 02:08 PM
#2964
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
To be clear, USAPA is in court because Doug P and the boys in the sand castle contend that the LOA that had the snabacks was not part of the sale of USair to America West.
Doug claims it became null and void in the transaction. Of course this LOA, negotiatedby ALPA, is seen differently by the east guys. So messed up over there....hopefully we don't sink that low.
Doug claims it became null and void in the transaction. Of course this LOA, negotiatedby ALPA, is seen differently by the east guys. So messed up over there....hopefully we don't sink that low.
USAPA is in court over a DFR lawsuit that is now being appealed to the Supreme Court. They are also in court because the company filed for a declaratory judgment over the seniority list. They want the court to order one of the following:
1. The Nicolau list is the list and the company faces no liability from accepting the list
2. USAPA can choose any seniority list they want and the company faces no liability from agreeing to that list
3. No matter what list is ever accepted, the company faces no liability from using any list.
Ironically, USAPA is supremely confident they will prevail in their quest for Date of Hire, yet they are fighting the declaratory judgment tooth and nail. If they are so confident then it seems they should welcome a ruling by the court.
11-24-2010, 02:13 PM
#2965
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
The thing about profit sharing that bothers me is it reminds me of a sales job where you go out and pitch a product the customer orders with the company and then the company tells you how much they ordered and here is your commission.
That little part about how many orders I made is really up to the company and in la la land. Now I think our profit sharing is on more firm ground than that but I'll never trust it.
If you want to go outside the box, when I was a corporate pilot I was also a sales guy. I managed what charters we did and ran the risk of achieving my goal was to get about 30 hours a month or blowing it by turning down bad trips. I was paid a nice base salary and then a per hour 'commission' off the hours I flew in which the boss made money. The boss was no idiot, he was an immigrant with a 6th grade education now worth about a half a billion dollars. He understood how to motivate people and by tying my income to his, we were on the same page- just like any other sales job. The current system industry wide doesn't put the employee and employer on the same page.
I don't advocate changing an established system but if you told a 5th year pilot (any plane) he'll make $50,000 a year base salary and $.35 per available seat per hour then it'd work out like this:
5th year = $50,000. Then MD88 pilot flies 150 passengers. 150pax x $0.35 = $52.5/flight hour. Pilot flies 70 hours a month (840 in a year). So $50,000 + $52.5 x 840 = $94,100.
$94,100 equals $112.02/flt hr, but currently 5th year 88 FO is $92.57.
Now what happens when times our bad, shrink hours available and pilot costs decrease. If things are bad then you're stuck furloughing.
What about reserve pilots, they get $X per day that they're available whether used or not or the higher of the flight hours flown.
If the company is doing well, surcharges per hour.
That'd be a system flexible to the business environment. Not what we have now. But that's just what I've done and seen not what's practical given the dinosaur nature of our industry today.
That little part about how many orders I made is really up to the company and in la la land. Now I think our profit sharing is on more firm ground than that but I'll never trust it.
If you want to go outside the box, when I was a corporate pilot I was also a sales guy. I managed what charters we did and ran the risk of achieving my goal was to get about 30 hours a month or blowing it by turning down bad trips. I was paid a nice base salary and then a per hour 'commission' off the hours I flew in which the boss made money. The boss was no idiot, he was an immigrant with a 6th grade education now worth about a half a billion dollars. He understood how to motivate people and by tying my income to his, we were on the same page- just like any other sales job. The current system industry wide doesn't put the employee and employer on the same page.
I don't advocate changing an established system but if you told a 5th year pilot (any plane) he'll make $50,000 a year base salary and $.35 per available seat per hour then it'd work out like this:
5th year = $50,000. Then MD88 pilot flies 150 passengers. 150pax x $0.35 = $52.5/flight hour. Pilot flies 70 hours a month (840 in a year). So $50,000 + $52.5 x 840 = $94,100.
$94,100 equals $112.02/flt hr, but currently 5th year 88 FO is $92.57.
Now what happens when times our bad, shrink hours available and pilot costs decrease. If things are bad then you're stuck furloughing.
What about reserve pilots, they get $X per day that they're available whether used or not or the higher of the flight hours flown.
If the company is doing well, surcharges per hour.
That'd be a system flexible to the business environment. Not what we have now. But that's just what I've done and seen not what's practical given the dinosaur nature of our industry today.
FTB;
I'd like to respond to this with something intelligent, but in our real world, we are just w-2 pilots living with our contract. Pay discussions, in this business are difficult to quantify beyond, # of seats on the jet and hours flown. The individual product (one safe flight segment) disappears into thin air the moment it is delivered.
11-24-2010, 02:29 PM
#2966
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Recovering Airline Pilot
Posts: 460
In the very recent past. The New York state transit workers. They were not allowed to strike, but their leader called for a strike anyway. The workers struck, and the union leader was jailed. Less than a week later the state settled, and the union leader was set free. He said: "Don't ever tell me I can't strike!"
That's the difference between a union and an association.l
That's the difference between a union and an association.l
Yes I have. AMR's revenues are back to being extremely strong just like the rest of the majors. APA is asking for restoration. Restoration that was never as high as UAL and DAL got at the peak. You've claimed that equates to demanding something that AMR could never afford. It is no such thing.l
11-24-2010, 02:38 PM
#2967
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
FtB;
I do not think anyone, ALPA, DALPA, DAL Management thought that the decline in the margins was a lasting thing. No one could have predicted 9-11 a few months after inking C2K, no one could predict that SWA would have won the lotto on fuel hedging when the rest of us were up to our eyeballs in debt and could not hedge, no one could have predicted that their hedging would have lasted until 2009, which allowed them to keep their wages up, and prices down. A lucky business decision that will probably never happen again allowed them to look a lot better than they really are. The legacies miscalculation of this caused many to mortgage their companies to weather what many thought was a passing storm and guessing wrong.*
It is a compiling of issues, add it it internet ticketing and it is no wonder that many went in to CH 11 slashed contracts, and shed debt. SWA which mind you caused much of the prolonged suffering by a great hedge (good business decision) put the final nail in the legacies coffin. As much as we do not want to admit it, CH 11 reset that, and SWA exasperated it.*
You points could be argued as valid after this section six cycle if we accept less, or ALPA does not go for more than the beloved SWA rates and tries to sell you on it. Making this case prior to a section six or an interim agreement that is inked in a profitable time is nonsense.*
You are a pragmatic guy, I know you are, I understand the frustration. I too want our rates and work rules to blow those little orange jets out of the water, and I suspect they will. Making darn near a billion dollars in a quarter shows us it is possible. Keeping the P/L in the black reaffirms our charge.
I do not think anyone, ALPA, DALPA, DAL Management thought that the decline in the margins was a lasting thing. No one could have predicted 9-11 a few months after inking C2K, no one could predict that SWA would have won the lotto on fuel hedging when the rest of us were up to our eyeballs in debt and could not hedge, no one could have predicted that their hedging would have lasted until 2009, which allowed them to keep their wages up, and prices down. A lucky business decision that will probably never happen again allowed them to look a lot better than they really are. The legacies miscalculation of this caused many to mortgage their companies to weather what many thought was a passing storm and guessing wrong.*
It is a compiling of issues, add it it internet ticketing and it is no wonder that many went in to CH 11 slashed contracts, and shed debt. SWA which mind you caused much of the prolonged suffering by a great hedge (good business decision) put the final nail in the legacies coffin. As much as we do not want to admit it, CH 11 reset that, and SWA exasperated it.*
You points could be argued as valid after this section six cycle if we accept less, or ALPA does not go for more than the beloved SWA rates and tries to sell you on it. Making this case prior to a section six or an interim agreement that is inked in a profitable time is nonsense.*
You are a pragmatic guy, I know you are, I understand the frustration. I too want our rates and work rules to blow those little orange jets out of the water, and I suspect they will. Making darn near a billion dollars in a quarter shows us it is possible. Keeping the P/L in the black reaffirms our charge.
I get the distinct impression from this thread don't expect anything better than status quo especially if scope remains the same. Meanwhile UCAL is seeking to end rjs and get pay raises.
I guess the pushback by ALPA, not management but ALPA, on pay and scope and change just pushes pilots to want the whipping stick of the DPA, to actually get the DPA or just outright disengage from supporting or volunteering from ALPA.*
11-24-2010, 02:44 PM
#2968
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
I understand ACL, I guess just take this fwiw, I don't see DAL 737 rates ever matching SWA rates. Or DC95 rates matching their rates since capacity wise at 137 seats their 733/5/7s are not as a large as the 738.*
I get the distinct impression from this thread don't expect anything better than status quo especially if scope remains the same. Meanwhile UCAL is seeking to end rjs and get pay raises.
I guess the pushback by ALPA, not management but ALPA, on pay and scope and change just pushes pilots to want the whipping stick of the DPA, to actually get the DPA or just outright disengage from supporting or volunteering from ALPA.*
I get the distinct impression from this thread don't expect anything better than status quo especially if scope remains the same. Meanwhile UCAL is seeking to end rjs and get pay raises.
I guess the pushback by ALPA, not management but ALPA, on pay and scope and change just pushes pilots to want the whipping stick of the DPA, to actually get the DPA or just outright disengage from supporting or volunteering from ALPA.*
11-24-2010, 02:49 PM
#2969
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 799
You're wrong.
Here are some commuter rail examples within the same region: Locomotive engineers' hourly rate is $27.24 at Amtrak, $29.92 at Long Island RR, $25.73 at New Jersey Transit. The trackman rate is $16.31 at Amtrak, $19.03 at Metra (Illinois), $20.42 at SEPTA (Philadelphia), $23.33 at Long Island.
If you want to compare the differences at UP, BNSF, CSX, or any of the local freights...go to their websites and post the various rates. And those rates have varied over the years as the state of the economy has varied.
Got a better example?
Here are some commuter rail examples within the same region: Locomotive engineers' hourly rate is $27.24 at Amtrak, $29.92 at Long Island RR, $25.73 at New Jersey Transit. The trackman rate is $16.31 at Amtrak, $19.03 at Metra (Illinois), $20.42 at SEPTA (Philadelphia), $23.33 at Long Island.
If you want to compare the differences at UP, BNSF, CSX, or any of the local freights...go to their websites and post the various rates. And those rates have varied over the years as the state of the economy has varied.
Got a better example?
The Railway Labor Act Governs Employer-Employee Relations in the Rail Industry
• Collective bargaining between freight railroads and their employees is governed by the
Railway Labor Act (RLA), which was first passed in 1926 and amended occasionally since
then. Collective bargaining for most other U.S. industries is governed by the National
Labor Relations Act.
• Most Class I and a number of non-Class I railroads bargain on a “national handling” basis
covering more than 90% of unionized freight rail employees. Under national handling, a
group of railroads bargains jointly with a union or group of unions for an agreement that
applies to all those who participate in the bargaining. Railroads that engage in national
handling do so through the National Carriers’ Conference Committee of the National
Railway Labor Conference.
BTW, I'll try and be less careless next time I post.
11-24-2010, 02:59 PM
#2970
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: Boeing Boss
Posts: 335
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