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11-24-2010, 08:18 AM

#2921

slowplay

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Feb 2008

Posts: 2,539

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Because you have such poor knowledge of our industry's history, you refer to boom and bust cycles. In my 32 years and 3 ALPA airlines, I've seen steady increases, and one bust caused by the historic terrorist attacks of 9/11.

With the timeline you describe above, I'm sure you remember 1993, right...?

That's the one where you took concessions to avoid bankruptcy and undercut other airlines?

11-24-2010, 08:45 AM

#2922

tsquare

No longer cares

Joined APC: Mar 2008

Position: 767er Captain

Posts: 12,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowplay

I don't know, T, but I believe there has to be a better way. We need to find a way to get paid when management and capital gets paid. We need to find a way to reap a substantial share of the gains we help create, but protect our pilots and company on the downside of this cyclical industry.

Look at 1996-2000. After a concessionary contract the company made record profits. We benefited only slightly (first tranche of stock options and 8% profit sharing turned into a raise). We left a whole bunch of money on the table. Leo the CEO does his "contract is a contract" thing...and we generate leverage for C2K. From 2001 to 2004 the company loses billions, while our pilots in aggregate are paid billions more than their peers. Hello LOA-46 and pension freeze, then bankruptcy. That same scenario has been played out throughout deregulation, just the amplitude kept getting bigger.

Pardon me for not wanting to jump back into that cycle. There has got to be a better way.

I agree in principle (-al?). It's just that it seems that whenever there has been a "crisis" at DAL in the time I have been here, it is always labor that takes the lion's share of the pain, and as you say, we hardly ever.. if ever.. reap any rewards when times are good... current situation is a case in point. I would love to find a way to disconnect our compensation from that boom bust that we are talking about. I don't like the cycle anymore than you.. believe me.. and I would also (as I have pointed out earlier) like to revisit the payscales to make more sense than they currently do.. but I know that I am tilting at windmills with that.

One thing I definitely agree with Carl is that we need snapbacks on ANY concessionary contract that we will see in the future. Anything less is stupid...

11-24-2010, 08:54 AM

#2923

acl65pilot

Happy to be here

Joined APC: Jun 2006

Position: A-320A

Posts: 18,563

T-
I agree. Snap backs are a must. If it ever comes to a concessionary period again, we must not agree until that is part of it. It can be incremental depending on some metric (time etc) but they are needed.

USAPA is in court about theirs, and Midwest had them.

Of course that is if we do not do some sort of pay scheme that allows bonuses, etc to stop when the company hits X loss. If we go with traditional pay, then yes, snap backs are not just desired, but mandatory.

11-24-2010, 08:56 AM

#2924

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Carl;
As slow points out, we here at the PMDAL have had two concessionary contracts. POS 96 and the CH 11 contract. We got great gains in C2K but they were taken in CH11 So yes, boom, bust, boom, bust, ........

Talk about drama! Decades of steady increases, with a relatively small give back, then back to steady rises until 9-11...and you refer to that as "boom bust?" I know you need to call it that to cover for your weak desire to accept whatever the company offers so that you never have to fight for anything. But this describes a multiple step up and one step down staircase up to 9-11...not boom and bust.

Degrading the progress made decades before you were born shows ignorance, not a desire to make gains.

Carl

11-24-2010, 09:08 AM

#2925

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Drama. Read my previous post. It has been since 1996 so, not decades but it is going on 15 years.

Just remember you best thinking got us where we are today!!

Guess again Nancy. It's the skirts like you that got us in to where we are today. The guys from 1932 on new how to fight for what was right, not make deals so that they could "live to fight another day." And what we lost in 93 and you in 96 was not a "bust" it was one downward step on an overall upward staircase. Until we all met radical jihadism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

but why not try a different approach. If it does not work, we still have our rights on the RLA.

We've been trying it your way for about 10 years now. It has gotten us one of the worst overall contracts in the industry. And one with AT LEAST 25 more months to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Like some have said, squeeze the chicken's neck, but by God do not choke him to deal since we rely on the chicken.

How proper that you would use the analogy of a chicken. Restoration would NOT kill the chicken. Delta could afford it when revenues were as strong as they are now. And Delta doesn't even have to worry about it for another 25 months at a minimum.

Besides, talk of choking chickens belongs on another thread I think.

Carl

11-24-2010, 09:10 AM

#2926

hockeypilot44

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Joined APC: Jul 2008

Posts: 5,040

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Didn't NWA refuse to honor a negotiated snapback thus eventually leading to a strike in '98? I'm sure Carl can give us the details.

11-24-2010, 09:11 AM

#2927

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowplay

With the timeline you describe above, I'm sure you remember 1993, right...?

That's the one where you took concessions to avoid bankruptcy and undercut other airlines?

You too? You call one step down in 93 a bust? Really, a bust? Sounds like you want the stability of a dead patient's EKG.

Carl

11-24-2010, 09:17 AM

#2928

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44

Didn't NWA refuse to honor a negotiated snapback thus eventually leading to a strike in '98? I'm sure Carl can give us the details.

They did indeed. We sued the company, and they lost quickly. But the anger that action produced was strong. The pilots were in no mood to take any sh!! from management at all, and typically, that's all management was willing to give. We struck. We won really good increases. The CEO was encouraged to explore "other opportunities" as CEO of Burger King. He did. The fries still suck.

Carl

11-24-2010, 09:18 AM

#2929

slowplay

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Feb 2008

Posts: 2,539

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

You too? You call one step down in 93 a bust? Really, a bust? Sounds like you want the stability of a dead patient's EKG.

Carl

Oh, I get it now..."one step down" is actually a "steady increase."

And you give ACL a hard time...

11-24-2010, 09:24 AM

#2930

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowplay

Oh, I get it now..."one step down" is actually a "steady increase."

Use your imagination if you have one. Picture a stock graph of Google or Apple. Long term steady upward movement, with a relatively small dip along the way up. Only a drama queen like you would call that boom and bust.

Carl