acl65pilot

Carl;

Contrary to what you think you think you know, all of the above is pure rubbish. I have no earthly idea what management wants, haven't been over on the fourth floor in almost two years, don't stop by the CPO at all. So nice try. I freely admit that I looked at the Duty Pilot and a FOM position as a new hire. It is a good way to learn the operation and what goes on, but nothing more than that Carl.

What I do is volunteer my time for a few committees within ALPA, a lot of it. So what you are spewing is just another form insults. What I and others are trying to tell you is, there may be other and better ways to get exactly what we all would like to see, a career that has earnings that match our expectations for the job we perform. The boom bust cycle as just been that. There has got to be a better way. There is nothing in that, that manages expectations downward. It does lack the rhetoric though, and maybe that is what you need.

The one thing I see is that you are looking for the boom bust to last one more time, since you might be gone for the next bust cycle. Unity needs to be top down. Many prefer to see Delta prosper, grow, add pilots, and increase their scope of operations. I know that since you are on the Whale, there is no where up for you to go, so the only way to get a QOL boost is to push for huge raises or bust. In reality that proves that you could care less about what happens to the remainder of the pilot group as a result of that. It is not about managing expectations downward Carl, it is about finding a way to start a positive trend that gets us to the exact same spot you want at the exact same time. If that method fails I do not see anyone, including myself, that will not be ready to wait it out, walk the line, and get furloughed if needed. So please spare me the rhetoric.

It is simple tried and true method of operation for all organizations the world over. "Use diplomacy to the maximum extent possible before you use military force."

satchip

And we finally get to the rub of it. All us junior people should "suck it up" and sacrifice a few years of unemployment so the mighty giants like Carl can retire rich. Well screw you buddy. You are a perfect example of what's wrong with this industry and this so called union. At least LM represented everyone, not just the top. With supporters like Carl, I fear the DPA is just the opposite. Restore the top at the expense of everyone else.

Can't wait for the day you pull the retirement rip chord.

tsquare

I don't think this is a possible equation because the employer is the one that controls the cash flow. That alone would seem to preclude protection of the employee. Being that we are always on the liability side of the ledger.. ALWAYS.. I don't see how this can be done.... unless.. we are paid with some sort of secondary market type deal.. i.e. stock, with the stipulation that we can sell it IMMEDIATELY on the open market as soon as it shows up in our account. That way, it does not directly affect DAL's bottom line but rather the market cap which is wall street gibberish anyway and has nothing to do with the day to day operations of the company... other than something like that, good luck defining the equation..

acl65pilot

T he is talking about compensation above what many people tout here in good times, but built in mechanisms that stop that sort of compensation when the profits (operational) are not there. The idea gets its genesis from the profit sharing plan, but it would be paid more frequently and is a lot more robust.

So in effect, a hefty raise to the hourly rates, but not to the point that we would need concessions like we did prior to Ch11, and then these sort of compensation plans that would pay decent sums of money when we made a profit. It is an idea, and a moving target, but after much discussion about these ideas with a ton of pilots, there seems to be some good ideas behind it. It may get no traction with the pilot group or with management but ideas are good.

Carl Spackler

Because you have such poor knowledge of our industry's history, you refer to boom and bust cycles. In my 32 years and 3 ALPA airlines, I've seen steady increases, and one bust caused by the historic terrorist attacks of 9/11. That is not a boom bust cycle. Your attempts to paint our decades long history of fighting to keep the profession as lucrative as possible as some sort of senseless "boom bust cycle" shows your disdain for all the folks that came before you. You are such a sad example of the "me first" generation. Everything you enjoy now, you owe to old farts like me who fought those battles over 30 years. Everything I have now, I owe to the even older farts who did the same for me. You are clueless and disrespecful.

Yet another display of ignorance.

The way to begin that positive trend is to stop lowering the expectations of your fellow pilots as you do nearly constantly.

That's good. We may need to do just that. As always, I hope not, but we all need to be prepared.

Diplomacy has almost run its course here dude. We are the world's largest airline and we are not at the top of our industry in one single category...not one. In some cases, we are near the worst in the industry. Reserve guarantee, sick leave, vacation, just to name a few. This is unacceptable for the pilots of a hugely profitable airline. An airline that OWES those profits to the enormous cuts taken during BK. What's worse, our management will not lift a finger to offer a mid contract boost to us before 2012. Their view is: "Hey, a contract is a contract." That wasn't their view when we gave our airline concession in mid contract.

Time to let management know that if they don't want to talk until December of 2012, we'll be polishing and loading the cannons...just in case.

Carl

slowplay

I don't know, T, but I believe there has to be a better way. We need to find a way to get paid when management and capital gets paid. We need to find a way to reap a substantial share of the gains we help create, but protect our pilots and company on the downside of this cyclical industry.

Look at 1996-2000. After a concessionary contract the company made record profits. We benefited only slightly (first tranche of stock options and 8% profit sharing turned into a raise). We left a whole bunch of money on the table. Leo the CEO does his "contract is a contract" thing...and we generate leverage for C2K. From 2001 to 2004 the company loses billions, while our pilots in aggregate are paid billions more than their peers. Hello LOA-46 and pension freeze, then bankruptcy. That same scenario has been played out throughout deregulation, just the amplitude kept getting bigger.

Pardon me for not wanting to jump back into that cycle. There has got to be a better way.

Carl Spackler

As always satchip, you are utterly clueless. Nobody ever said you should suck it up. Just that all of us should fight against managements who have wanted to destroy our profession since Dave Behncke started ALPA in the 1930's. All of us. Junior and senior. When I was junior, I was out on the street...5 times to be exact. When I got senior, I funded furlough pay and COBRA benefits for the junior guys who got furloughed. None of which I got when I was furloghed. Buy a frickin clue.

Yup, that must be it. That must be why the guy leading the DPA charge is a junior MSP co-pilot...he just wants to restore the top at the expense of everyone else. Nice work Sherlock.

Naa, it's too much fun teaching guys like you how to be an airline pilot.

Carl

Carl Spackler

One way would have been to demand snap back clauses in BK...just in case the company made billions a few years later. We didn't even do that! Not NWALPA, and not DALPA. We should never again give a single penny back to management without a snap back clause. Both of our ALPA units bought into management's case that the cuts had to be for the duration of the contract without snap backs so that they could attract capital and attract investors. Our ALPA units (and thus us) were suckered.

Carl

acl65pilot

Carl;
As slow points out, we here at the PMDAL have had two concessionary contracts. POS 96 and the CH 11 contract. We got great gains in C2K but they were taken in CH11 So yes, boom, bust, boom, bust, ........

acl65pilot

Drama. Read my previous post. It has been since 1996 so, not decades but it is going on 15 years.

Just remember you best thinking got us where we are today!!





Again more rhetoric. It is not lowering expectation. It is not promising the world getting it and then having to sell it back. It is called, getting what we demand but doing it in a way that keeps it sustainable. I do not know why you do not see that. If that way does not work, or does not give us what we want, we always can go back to the way you suggest, and we will just get more of the same.


We do. There is always a possibility of that, but why not try a different approach. If it does not work, we still have our rights on the RLA.


Carl; what happened with the JPWA is in the past. Look at the surrounding world. Look at the job market. Look at the recession we have been though.
Look at what other majors have done. It ain't perfect by any stretch but our pilots voted for it. Both companies had made one quarter of profit at that point after years of billion dollar losses and CH11. Where we are not is a different place entirely. Like some have said, squeeze the chicken's neck, but by God do not choke him to deal since we rely on the chicken. What that entail is anyone's guess. It is too early to make that call.


I think they get that we want a lot in this next round. They know guys are beyond mad. Just look around you. It is not hard to see that. No one is whistling past the grave yard saying everything is fine. It is about the initial methodology. No more. The end game is the same.