Delta Pilots Association
11-23-2010, 07:12 PM
#2902
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Maybe the DPA is a bad idea. Maybe being unionized is a bad idea. Put 2% in to hire labor lawyers for job protection.
Then threaten to unionize every other year.
That way the company will pretty much give us more than we could have negotiated having gone first through the "they can't afford that" and then the "we can't afford that" layers.
Then threaten to unionize every other year.
That way the company will pretty much give us more than we could have negotiated having gone first through the "they can't afford that" and then the "we can't afford that" layers.
11-23-2010, 08:02 PM
#2903
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Maybe the DPA is a bad idea. Maybe being unionized is a bad idea. Put 2% in to hire labor lawyers for job protection.
Then threaten to unionize every other year.
That way the company will pretty much give us more than we could have negotiated having gone first through the "they can't afford that" and then the "we can't afford that" layers.
Then threaten to unionize every other year.
That way the company will pretty much give us more than we could have negotiated having gone first through the "they can't afford that" and then the "we can't afford that" layers.
11-23-2010, 09:13 PM
#2904
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Maybe the DPA is a bad idea. Maybe being unionized is a bad idea. Put 2% in to hire labor lawyers for job protection.
Then threaten to unionize every other year.
That way the company will pretty much give us more than we could have negotiated having gone first through the "they can't afford that" and then the "we can't afford that" layers.
Then threaten to unionize every other year.
That way the company will pretty much give us more than we could have negotiated having gone first through the "they can't afford that" and then the "we can't afford that" layers.
Having said that -- I'm ready to keep my 2% in my pocket at just take my chances as an at will employee.
ALPA, DPA or the government just another hand in my pocket.
11-23-2010, 09:40 PM
#2905
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
That's the difference between a union and an association.
ALPA sure the hell is.
Carl
11-23-2010, 09:50 PM
#2906
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
acl,
You know, when we first were going through all this NWA/DAL merger madness, some people told us as newcomers to the scene, that Delta Air Lines was the greatest airline in the world, that Delta took care of its people and that you --soon to be "we"-- were one big happy family. I remember someone told us that the company needed us to hurry up, get along, and sign the contract, so the company could realize the huge efficiencies the merger would create; that if we did so, the company would be in a great position to succeed and therefore we would be in a great position to succeed. Just sign up now, so we can all win. Delta will appreciate it. Delta knows they took too much in bankruptcy. Delta will make up for it. Delta will take care of its people.
Not that I necessarily believed any of this, because I was brought up in an airline where you had to keep both eyes on management at all times, where you could never believe them, where you even had to fight for a measly 3% raise that was agreed upon as part of the employees literally deciding to save the company in the CEO's living room. In my 15 years here, I have seen a lot, so not too many things get my attention. But, I must admit, it is a little peculiar to see some of the same people who preached how great Delta was back then, be the same people who are telling us that Delta won't or can't acquiesce to some of our demands BEFORE we even demand them. It is especially strange to hear this talk when the company is making record profits.
In your post you said that the captains you fly with, "would love to have conditions right for a C2K restoration contract, but they are not going to hold their breath for it...." What? What you should have told them is, if the conditions aren't right, right now, they will never be right.
What I don't understand is, why not let Delta Air Lines and their management be the ones to tell us what they can and can't afford? Let them be the ones who make the calculation of if they want their 7er pilots to taxi past SWA 737 crews and envy their paychecks and lifestyles. Let them be the ones who decide if they want their pilots to continue to look to the past as being the good old days. Aren't we a large part of the reason as to why the company is doing so well? That's what we were told. I'm sure they want to continue this financial trend.
There are a lot of factors that don't appear on paper that balance sheets can't factor in and they know it. I can guarantee you that Delta would never want the morale problems to surface here that landed Doug Steenland in President Bush's office in the summer of 2007. Just as they can make a cost calculation and decide it is better to pay down the long term debt so they can achieve lower interest rates, they can make a calculation that it is better to pay their pilots to achieve better morale, less sick calls, more single engine taxing, less mx write-ups, etc. In a sense, what some of you are doing is forgiving an agreed upon interest rate we have with the company when at this point they certainly don't need it.
Personally, I don't know what is doable for the company. But, I do think they have other things to consider when and if they decide to delay negotiations besides the long term cost of inflation. They are spending a lot of money on our image as employees. They are saving a lot of money because of their image with other employee groups. Not one union vote that I know of has passed since I've been here. So, now lets see what they want to do with us. But, let's leave our interest rate the same. There is absolutely no reason to change our expectations right now and as far as Delta Air Lines should be concerned, we as pilots want now what we wanted back then. Nothing has changed since 2008, except 1.) We have done our part, 2.) Delta Air Lines is kicking butt, & 3.) the time to pay up is quickly approaching.
I say, bring it on.
New K Now
You know, when we first were going through all this NWA/DAL merger madness, some people told us as newcomers to the scene, that Delta Air Lines was the greatest airline in the world, that Delta took care of its people and that you --soon to be "we"-- were one big happy family. I remember someone told us that the company needed us to hurry up, get along, and sign the contract, so the company could realize the huge efficiencies the merger would create; that if we did so, the company would be in a great position to succeed and therefore we would be in a great position to succeed. Just sign up now, so we can all win. Delta will appreciate it. Delta knows they took too much in bankruptcy. Delta will make up for it. Delta will take care of its people.
Not that I necessarily believed any of this, because I was brought up in an airline where you had to keep both eyes on management at all times, where you could never believe them, where you even had to fight for a measly 3% raise that was agreed upon as part of the employees literally deciding to save the company in the CEO's living room. In my 15 years here, I have seen a lot, so not too many things get my attention. But, I must admit, it is a little peculiar to see some of the same people who preached how great Delta was back then, be the same people who are telling us that Delta won't or can't acquiesce to some of our demands BEFORE we even demand them. It is especially strange to hear this talk when the company is making record profits.
In your post you said that the captains you fly with, "would love to have conditions right for a C2K restoration contract, but they are not going to hold their breath for it...." What? What you should have told them is, if the conditions aren't right, right now, they will never be right.
What I don't understand is, why not let Delta Air Lines and their management be the ones to tell us what they can and can't afford? Let them be the ones who make the calculation of if they want their 7er pilots to taxi past SWA 737 crews and envy their paychecks and lifestyles. Let them be the ones who decide if they want their pilots to continue to look to the past as being the good old days. Aren't we a large part of the reason as to why the company is doing so well? That's what we were told. I'm sure they want to continue this financial trend.
There are a lot of factors that don't appear on paper that balance sheets can't factor in and they know it. I can guarantee you that Delta would never want the morale problems to surface here that landed Doug Steenland in President Bush's office in the summer of 2007. Just as they can make a cost calculation and decide it is better to pay down the long term debt so they can achieve lower interest rates, they can make a calculation that it is better to pay their pilots to achieve better morale, less sick calls, more single engine taxing, less mx write-ups, etc. In a sense, what some of you are doing is forgiving an agreed upon interest rate we have with the company when at this point they certainly don't need it.
Personally, I don't know what is doable for the company. But, I do think they have other things to consider when and if they decide to delay negotiations besides the long term cost of inflation. They are spending a lot of money on our image as employees. They are saving a lot of money because of their image with other employee groups. Not one union vote that I know of has passed since I've been here. So, now lets see what they want to do with us. But, let's leave our interest rate the same. There is absolutely no reason to change our expectations right now and as far as Delta Air Lines should be concerned, we as pilots want now what we wanted back then. Nothing has changed since 2008, except 1.) We have done our part, 2.) Delta Air Lines is kicking butt, & 3.) the time to pay up is quickly approaching.
I say, bring it on.
New K Now
Carl
11-23-2010, 10:02 PM
#2907
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Yes I have. AMR's revenues are back to being extremely strong just like the rest of the majors. APA is asking for restoration. Restoration that was never as high as UAL and DAL got at the peak. You've claimed that equates to demanding something that AMR could never afford. It is no such thing.
You know nothing of what you speak. But you're a clear example of the cowardice that permeates ALPA national.
Carl
You know nothing of what you speak. But you're a clear example of the cowardice that permeates ALPA national.
Carl
11-23-2010, 10:16 PM
#2908
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I know you're a scared new guy with a family. I was the same 32 years ago. But your stance of accepting anything just to keep yourself employed is weak and shameful. The success I have today is only due to the giants who came before me and would not let management after management destroy our profession since 1932. I owe their memories the same fight for this profession even though I'm almost done. You owe it to their memories too.
If our gains are "too much" and you have to spend a little time on the street, suck it up and realize you'll be coming back to a profession worth coming back to. Not an RJ job flying Boeings.
Carl
11-24-2010, 05:16 AM
#2909
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Carl, never said that I wanted only in inflationary raise, but you know that. Even with the referenced quote. Read it again, it was remarks about fellows I fly with.
Plus Carl, If I get furloughed because you get a huge raise, so be it. That is part of the game. I have no fear of the almighty furlough. Hardly scared, I am smart enough that this is not my sole source of income, and if needed I would survive, might have to see a few assets but I would not be uncomfortable. So spare me the drama. I have will also be totally debt free by 2012 by design.
As much as you want to make this about me trying to manage everyone's expectations for my personal gains, you are once again wrong. Not the way I operate, and you would know that if you quit flinging insults all over the place and realized that some want to work to fix our system, and at the end of the day have more in our pocket by taken a slightly different path. You would see that if you cared to.
Plus Carl, If I get furloughed because you get a huge raise, so be it. That is part of the game. I have no fear of the almighty furlough. Hardly scared, I am smart enough that this is not my sole source of income, and if needed I would survive, might have to see a few assets but I would not be uncomfortable. So spare me the drama. I have will also be totally debt free by 2012 by design.
As much as you want to make this about me trying to manage everyone's expectations for my personal gains, you are once again wrong. Not the way I operate, and you would know that if you quit flinging insults all over the place and realized that some want to work to fix our system, and at the end of the day have more in our pocket by taken a slightly different path. You would see that if you cared to.
11-24-2010, 05:42 AM
#2910
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl, never said that I wanted only in inflationary raise, but you know that. Even with the referenced quote. Read it again, it was remarks about fellows I fly with.
Plus Carl, If I get furloughed because you get a huge raise, so be it. That is part of the game. I have no fear of the almighty furlough. Hardly scared, I am smart enough that this is not my sole source of income, and if needed I would survive, might have to see a few assets but I would not be uncomfortable. So spare me the drama. I have will also be totally debt free by 2012 by design.
As much as you want to make this about me trying to manage everyone's expectations for my personal gains, you are once again wrong. Not the way I operate, and you would know that if you quit flinging insults all over the place and realized that some want to work to fix our system, and at the end of the day have more in our pocket by taken a slightly different path. You would see that if you cared to.
Plus Carl, If I get furloughed because you get a huge raise, so be it. That is part of the game. I have no fear of the almighty furlough. Hardly scared, I am smart enough that this is not my sole source of income, and if needed I would survive, might have to see a few assets but I would not be uncomfortable. So spare me the drama. I have will also be totally debt free by 2012 by design.
As much as you want to make this about me trying to manage everyone's expectations for my personal gains, you are once again wrong. Not the way I operate, and you would know that if you quit flinging insults all over the place and realized that some want to work to fix our system, and at the end of the day have more in our pocket by taken a slightly different path. You would see that if you cared to.
Complain all you want young man, but I only re-print your own words. If you would just retract them and stop being a mouthpiece for management, you and I wouldn't have a problem. Until then, I've got a big problem with you.
Carl
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