Delta Pilots Association
11-23-2010, 10:08 AM
#2881
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
I am all for using as many airlines as possible to use as comparisons as possible. I get where you are going with this, and there would need to be a composite rate for the 765, and the variants of the 320, 73N and 320 as well.
If we look at Skyteam, there are probably a few carriers that go above and below our pay. Same for the other alliances. We would also have to equalize the currency, and tax rates for individuals and corporations in each country as well. It would be a complex process, but I am all for it if it leads to a better return.
SWA is efficient, but as they grow and with hew rest rules that may change to a degree. I like where you are heading, it makes sense on some level, and takes the tired and true formula used for a long time and simplifies it. I am sure there are positives and negatives to it, but it is something I would have no issue looking at and if deemed a strategy that would prove successful, we should employ it. Not going to argue on that.
If we look at Skyteam, there are probably a few carriers that go above and below our pay. Same for the other alliances. We would also have to equalize the currency, and tax rates for individuals and corporations in each country as well. It would be a complex process, but I am all for it if it leads to a better return.
SWA is efficient, but as they grow and with hew rest rules that may change to a degree. I like where you are heading, it makes sense on some level, and takes the tired and true formula used for a long time and simplifies it. I am sure there are positives and negatives to it, but it is something I would have no issue looking at and if deemed a strategy that would prove successful, we should employ it. Not going to argue on that.
Is this resolution worthy? A study of our IALPA bro's in the team and a compare and contrast on contracts? It seems like a fairly benign request although I do remember that the scope report card was benign too. One would think the FPL accounting report issue would be benign too but au contraire.
11-23-2010, 10:37 AM
#2882
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
It never huts to try. Never. Heck I will even look it over if you want me too before your next MEC meeting.
I do know that we have access to their contracts via IFALPA so it should not be too difficult.
I do know that we have access to their contracts via IFALPA so it should not be too difficult.
11-23-2010, 11:47 AM
#2883
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
It is a conversation, and not one sided. From their perspective they have a point. Many want a pension back too. We talk about a Pension in our names, or managed by ALPA, which btw many are not adverse too, we talk about a greater DC contribution. From their perspective they do not have the time to to wait it out. I do see that, even though I do. Many do not want to be under these work rules for five to seven more years. They know that better work rules and a 20% DC contribution will mask a real pay raise. They see hourly wages are only part of the equation.
I tell them what I can suspect will be doable, and it is a lot farther away from an inflationary raise. Of course it is my opinion only.
Carl quoted a lot of what I wrote, and I am glad he did. It never says what I want, even though he tried to play it that way. I think it is clear I was giving the position of pilots that have less than 10 years left here (53 or older) They want to get a nice bump, but do not want to sit locked at the table or parked by the NMB. These are also guys that are part of the silent majority that we hear about. They like incremental gains, and constructive engagement. They vote for their reps, but other than that are satisfied that DALPA is doing everything they can at every opportunity. They would love to have conditions right for a C2K restoration contract, but they are not going to hold their breath for it.....
I tell them what I can suspect will be doable, and it is a lot farther away from an inflationary raise. Of course it is my opinion only.
Carl quoted a lot of what I wrote, and I am glad he did. It never says what I want, even though he tried to play it that way. I think it is clear I was giving the position of pilots that have less than 10 years left here (53 or older) They want to get a nice bump, but do not want to sit locked at the table or parked by the NMB. These are also guys that are part of the silent majority that we hear about. They like incremental gains, and constructive engagement. They vote for their reps, but other than that are satisfied that DALPA is doing everything they can at every opportunity. They would love to have conditions right for a C2K restoration contract, but they are not going to hold their breath for it.....
acl,
You know, when we first were going through all this NWA/DAL merger madness, some people told us as newcomers to the scene, that Delta Air Lines was the greatest airline in the world, that Delta took care of its people and that you --soon to be "we"-- were one big happy family. I remember someone told us that the company needed us to hurry up, get along, and sign the contract, so the company could realize the huge efficiencies the merger would create; that if we did so, the company would be in a great position to succeed and therefore we would be in a great position to succeed. Just sign up now, so we can all win. Delta will appreciate it. Delta knows they took too much in bankruptcy. Delta will make up for it. Delta will take care of its people.
Not that I necessarily believed any of this, because I was brought up in an airline where you had to keep both eyes on management at all times, where you could never believe them, where you even had to fight for a measly 3% raise that was agreed upon as part of the employees literally deciding to save the company in the CEO's living room. In my 15 years here, I have seen a lot, so not too many things get my attention. But, I must admit, it is a little peculiar to see some of the same people who preached how great Delta was back then, be the same people who are telling us that Delta won't or can't acquiesce to some of our demands BEFORE we even demand them. It is especially strange to hear this talk when the company is making record profits.
In your post you said that the captains you fly with, "would love to have conditions right for a C2K restoration contract, but they are not going to hold their breath for it...." What? What you should have told them is, if the conditions aren't right, right now, they will never be right.
What I don't understand is, why not let Delta Air Lines and their management be the ones to tell us what they can and can't afford? Let them be the ones who make the calculation of if they want their 7er pilots to taxi past SWA 737 crews and envy their paychecks and lifestyles. Let them be the ones who decide if they want their pilots to continue to look to the past as being the good old days. Aren't we a large part of the reason as to why the company is doing so well? That's what we were told. I'm sure they want to continue this financial trend.
There are a lot of factors that don't appear on paper that balance sheets can't factor in and they know it. I can guarantee you that Delta would never want the morale problems to surface here that landed Doug Steenland in President Bush's office in the summer of 2007. Just as they can make a cost calculation and decide it is better to pay down the long term debt so they can achieve lower interest rates, they can make a calculation that it is better to pay their pilots to achieve better morale, less sick calls, more single engine taxing, less mx write-ups, etc. In a sense, what some of you are doing is forgiving an agreed upon interest rate we have with the company when at this point they certainly don't need it.
Personally, I don't know what is doable for the company. But, I do think they have other things to consider when and if they decide to delay negotiations besides the long term cost of inflation. They are spending a lot of money on our image as employees. They are saving a lot of money because of their image with other employee groups. Not one union vote that I know of has passed since I've been here. So, now lets see what they want to do with us. But, let's leave our interest rate the same. There is absolutely no reason to change our expectations right now and as far as Delta Air Lines should be concerned, we as pilots want now what we wanted back then. Nothing has changed since 2008, except 1.) We have done our part, 2.) Delta Air Lines is kicking butt, & 3.) the time to pay up is quickly approaching.
I say, bring it on.
New K Now
Last edited by newKnow; 11-23-2010 at 05:54 PM.
11-23-2010, 12:30 PM
#2884
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
I couldn't care less what the general population thinks of us. It's both amusing and frightening that you actually make a value judgment by putting down a dollar figure in your response. I hope you aren't a rep either..... But the general populace still think we make half a million a year and work once a week. Don't believe me? Just tell somebody that you took a 50% paycut in bankruptcy and watch their eyes... they have no clue. No.. my comparison is that we need someone that is willing to stand up to the gubbamint. It can be done.. unions in the past have done it, but in this day and age, we are too afraid to do it for some reason. The giants upon whose shoulders we now stand would be ashamed.. just like the founding fathers are of the government that is now in charge...
11-23-2010, 01:11 PM
#2890
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Oh rah!
That is what our EF and A services do. It checks the companies math. It will be what we do this time based on all the factors in the industry. Part of those conditions are the health of our balance sheet, projections, margins, and where the rest of the industries pilot compensation packages lie. We are making money and if that continues, as well as the other airlines getting their contracts done, and patterning above ours, you will see EF and A tell our guys that yep, your pilots are right, they can afford it and you should ask for it. If nothing changes it comes down to resolve and the desire to wait it out for quite a long time.
That is not managing expectations, that is telling guys that do not want to look at the realities of this industry, the way it is. It does not fit in to the sound bite that many want, but the true solutions never do. We many employ a two pronged approach, but it is too early to sit there and set our path in stone.
That is what our EF and A services do. It checks the companies math. It will be what we do this time based on all the factors in the industry. Part of those conditions are the health of our balance sheet, projections, margins, and where the rest of the industries pilot compensation packages lie. We are making money and if that continues, as well as the other airlines getting their contracts done, and patterning above ours, you will see EF and A tell our guys that yep, your pilots are right, they can afford it and you should ask for it. If nothing changes it comes down to resolve and the desire to wait it out for quite a long time.
That is not managing expectations, that is telling guys that do not want to look at the realities of this industry, the way it is. It does not fit in to the sound bite that many want, but the true solutions never do. We many employ a two pronged approach, but it is too early to sit there and set our path in stone.
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