Delta Pilots Association
11-23-2010, 07:57 AM
#2871
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Pretty huge insult to Lech, there tsquare.
Or are you SERIOUSLY equating Lech's quest for freedom, with your quest to make more than your present $170,000/year? Yeah, that's a winning argument there. You've got the population squarely behind you. They feel your pain, no doubt.
Or are you SERIOUSLY equating Lech's quest for freedom, with your quest to make more than your present $170,000/year? Yeah, that's a winning argument there. You've got the population squarely behind you. They feel your pain, no doubt.
11-23-2010, 07:58 AM
#2872
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I did not miss the point, I was retorting to what you simply said.
I also know that DPA can promise the world, but reality is that unless we get APA and UALALPA to pattern up, we will be looking at exactly what AMR gets. The name of our association will not matter to the NMB, only our ability to prove our case with effect EF and A data, which ALPA will provide because it is one of the many services that we pay for with the dues dollars we spend at national, but you knew that
I also know that DPA can promise the world, but reality is that unless we get APA and UALALPA to pattern up, we will be looking at exactly what AMR gets. The name of our association will not matter to the NMB, only our ability to prove our case with effect EF and A data, which ALPA will provide because it is one of the many services that we pay for with the dues dollars we spend at national, but you knew that
11-23-2010, 08:05 AM
#2873
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
30% hourly raises with a min of 5% a year along with totally fixing hours of service and scheduling would equate to something like a 45-50% increase in the contractual value on day one. Or better put a billion dollar increase in value. It is not the end game but it is not inflation either.
11-23-2010, 08:10 AM
#2874
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
30% hourly raises with a min of 5% a year along with totally fixing hours of service and scheduling would equate to something like a 45-50% increase in the contractual value on day one. Or better put a billion dollar increase in value. It is not the end game but it is not inflation either.
11-23-2010, 08:17 AM
#2875
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
T;
If we want it it will be what the MEC goes after. I know that my reps will push for what their pilots want. If the DPA crowd comes back in the fold and supports the stance that they submitted to their reps, I think that that percentage is more than doable, but it take a good company and a unified group. The unified group is a must. It needs to be that way prior to the opener which could come as early as 2Q 2012.
I have to ask, you say on one had 30% is not enough, but yet, you say 30% will never happen because of the lack of resolve, which will come from us the line pilot. It is in fact an arbitrary number that was picked out of hat, but your stance is conflicted. If you want the MEC to have resolve them must get it from the line. That needs to start now with support and direction via e-mails and calls to OUR union, and not a union drive that will divide us prior to the first section six after 1113C.
If we want it it will be what the MEC goes after. I know that my reps will push for what their pilots want. If the DPA crowd comes back in the fold and supports the stance that they submitted to their reps, I think that that percentage is more than doable, but it take a good company and a unified group. The unified group is a must. It needs to be that way prior to the opener which could come as early as 2Q 2012.
I have to ask, you say on one had 30% is not enough, but yet, you say 30% will never happen because of the lack of resolve, which will come from us the line pilot. It is in fact an arbitrary number that was picked out of hat, but your stance is conflicted. If you want the MEC to have resolve them must get it from the line. That needs to start now with support and direction via e-mails and calls to OUR union, and not a union drive that will divide us prior to the first section six after 1113C.
11-23-2010, 08:22 AM
#2876
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
What if.....USAPA wins their snap back arbitration? Long shot but ponder it.
Why the constant comparison with AMR, UCAL?
Why not except the fact that Tranny and SWA are doing far better already?
Why not set a floor, bottom exceptable return on an agreement, of swapa pay multiplied out with some multiplier for WB's.
Example. Current swapa book $212 per hour. Divide by 737-700 seating @137 = $1.54 per seat per hour.
Now, I'll be generous (for Ed's sake so he can keep sleeping at night) being they are upgrading to the 800 there. Lets say the 800 holds 160 single class.
$212 per hour divided by 160 = $1.325 per seat per hour.
Take your current a/c that you operate and do the math.
That would be the bottom exceptable pay, worst case return on negotiations.
I am not going to do the percentage gain math on all of our many a/c types now, but you all can. Is that number you get fair for you and your family? Or, is it to big and scary and should be settle for less than this?
Agree? or, not?
Later. Time for some school holiday activities with the kids. Fall break stuff....can't call it Thanksgiving now.
11-23-2010, 08:34 AM
#2877
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
The Manager, it is a great idea, sell it to your reps. If you look back a few posts, like I have said, it is too early to set a floor or a ceiling. It merely is a talking piece. If USAPA does win that snap back it helps us, AMR and UALALPA. It helps the industry break the log jam that I was discussing. Any of these factors cannot be set in stone today, and DALPA needs to be smart, put our the survey, and then adjust their position as the industry evolves around us. Like PG said, we may, or we may not, corporate profitability, and what these other pilot groups do will set our stage for our section six.
We are in complete agreement that stating X or else today is not the correct answer. The only thing I caution is that SWA should not be the benchmark, but a guide. The other caution is that they are removing seats with the lie flat configs which would effect this formula.
.
1.325 X 183 for the 757 equals 242.475 (less than 30% off of 2012 12 year 765 rates)
1.325 x 232 for the 767 equals 307 which would be awesome
65% for FO's would be 199.81.
I am all for ideas, do not get me wrong. A solid plan with actionable data is what is needed. If we can get that for whatever number we choose, we will be much better off.
We are in complete agreement that stating X or else today is not the correct answer. The only thing I caution is that SWA should not be the benchmark, but a guide. The other caution is that they are removing seats with the lie flat configs which would effect this formula.
.
1.325 X 183 for the 757 equals 242.475 (less than 30% off of 2012 12 year 765 rates)
1.325 x 232 for the 767 equals 307 which would be awesome
65% for FO's would be 199.81.
I am all for ideas, do not get me wrong. A solid plan with actionable data is what is needed. If we can get that for whatever number we choose, we will be much better off.
11-23-2010, 08:43 AM
#2878
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
T;
If we want it it will be what the MEC goes after. I know that my reps will push for what their pilots want. If the DPA crowd comes back in the fold and supports the stance that they submitted to their reps, I think that that percentage is more than doable, but it take a good company and a unified group. The unified group is a must. It needs to be that way prior to the opener which could come as early as 2Q 2012.
I have to ask, you say on one had 30% is not enough, but yet, you say 30% will never happen because of the lack of resolve, which will come from us the line pilot. It is in fact an arbitrary number that was picked out of hat, but your stance is conflicted. If you want the MEC to have resolve them must get it from the line. That needs to start now with support and direction via e-mails and calls to OUR union, and not a union drive that will divide us prior to the first section six after 1113C.
If we want it it will be what the MEC goes after. I know that my reps will push for what their pilots want. If the DPA crowd comes back in the fold and supports the stance that they submitted to their reps, I think that that percentage is more than doable, but it take a good company and a unified group. The unified group is a must. It needs to be that way prior to the opener which could come as early as 2Q 2012.
I have to ask, you say on one had 30% is not enough, but yet, you say 30% will never happen because of the lack of resolve, which will come from us the line pilot. It is in fact an arbitrary number that was picked out of hat, but your stance is conflicted. If you want the MEC to have resolve them must get it from the line. That needs to start now with support and direction via e-mails and calls to OUR union, and not a union drive that will divide us prior to the first section six after 1113C.
11-23-2010, 08:48 AM
#2879
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
The Manager, it is a great idea, sell it to your reps. If you look back a few posts, like I have said, it is too early to set a floor or a ceiling. It merely is a talking piece. If USAPA does win that snap back it helps us, AMR and UALALPA. It helps the industry break the log jam that I was discussing. Any of these factors cannot be set in stone today, and DALPA needs to be smart, put our the survey, and then adjust their position as the industry evolves around us. Like PG said, we may, or we may not, corporate profitability, and what these other pilot groups do will set our stage for our section six.
We are in complete agreement that stating X or else today is not the correct answer. The only thing I caution is that SWA should not be the benchmark, but a guide. The other caution is that they are removing seats with the lie flat configs which would effect this formula.
.
1.325 X 183 for the 757 equals 242.475 (less than 30% off of 2012 12 year 765 rates)
1.325 x 232 for the 767 equals 307 which would be awesome
65% for FO's would be 199.81.
I am all for ideas, do not get me wrong. A solid plan with actionable data is what is needed. If we can get that for whatever number we choose, we will be much better off.
We are in complete agreement that stating X or else today is not the correct answer. The only thing I caution is that SWA should not be the benchmark, but a guide. The other caution is that they are removing seats with the lie flat configs which would effect this formula.
.
1.325 X 183 for the 757 equals 242.475 (less than 30% off of 2012 12 year 765 rates)
1.325 x 232 for the 767 equals 307 which would be awesome
65% for FO's would be 199.81.
I am all for ideas, do not get me wrong. A solid plan with actionable data is what is needed. If we can get that for whatever number we choose, we will be much better off.
Also, not trying to sell anything to the reps. I am throwing out an idea of how to look at compensation in our indusrty. Pay per hour per seat, and how SWA's pay relates to all of us.
What then is an exceptable minimum? I understand they are efficient and generate more flights a day with an airframe than others do, but that is a management problem. How much revenue is generated in Africa? Asia? S. America?
Boils down to this. Look at what they are paid and what they do. How is what we do in the cockpit different than the tranny/swa guys? Why pattern on ucal/amr only? Why not included our Sky Team bro's in the comparison as well?
11-23-2010, 08:55 AM
#2880
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I am all for using as many airlines as possible to use as comparisons as possible. I get where you are going with this, and there would need to be a composite rate for the 765, and the variants of the 320, 73N and 320 as well.
If we look at Skyteam, there are probably a few carriers that go above and below our pay. Same for the other alliances. We would also have to equalize the currency, and tax rates for individuals and corporations in each country as well. It would be a complex process, but I am all for it if it leads to a better return.
SWA is efficient, but as they grow and with hew rest rules that may change to a degree. I like where you are heading, it makes sense on some level, and takes the tired and true formula used for a long time and simplifies it. I am sure there are positives and negatives to it, but it is something I would have no issue looking at and if deemed a strategy that would prove successful, we should employ it. Not going to argue on that.
If we look at Skyteam, there are probably a few carriers that go above and below our pay. Same for the other alliances. We would also have to equalize the currency, and tax rates for individuals and corporations in each country as well. It would be a complex process, but I am all for it if it leads to a better return.
SWA is efficient, but as they grow and with hew rest rules that may change to a degree. I like where you are heading, it makes sense on some level, and takes the tired and true formula used for a long time and simplifies it. I am sure there are positives and negatives to it, but it is something I would have no issue looking at and if deemed a strategy that would prove successful, we should employ it. Not going to argue on that.
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