Delta Pilots Association
09-21-2010, 10:24 AM
#271
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
09-21-2010, 10:30 AM
#272
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
I guess the point is, be careful what you ask for. So yes, the arguments aren't fresh ones, I just hope we would be smart enough to learn from those mistakes if we go another way.
Ferd
09-21-2010, 10:33 AM
#273
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
If we split from ALPA and "join" CAPA, that is exactly what will happen.
The difference, however, is that CAPA would represent the interests of mainline carriers, whether they're majors, LCCs or cargo. IOW, those of us who fly for our own brand.
Too me, that has been the biggest bone of contention with ALPA National. They are serving two masters with diametrically opposed goals. It's an unattainable situation.
The difference, however, is that CAPA would represent the interests of mainline carriers, whether they're majors, LCCs or cargo. IOW, those of us who fly for our own brand.
Too me, that has been the biggest bone of contention with ALPA National. They are serving two masters with diametrically opposed goals. It's an unattainable situation.
Focusing on RJ growth right now is akin to focusing on the Soviet menace invading western Europe. It's over. Industry consolidation is here. After CAL/UAL get together then AMR will have to make some move. They will all face the same phenomenon as what happened at Delta. A larger carrier will need larger jets. In case you haven't noticed, RJ's are falling away like flies. They are undergoing massive consolidation now, (probably forced by their parent carriers) because the ones that don't consolidate will die. Comair is shrinking by half and we are hiring. Delta's RJ capacity shrunk 4.4% last quarter and will probably be more than that this quarter.
So if you want to change unions because of the RJ menace, you need to invent a time machine and go back to the 1990's because you are 20 years too late. That problem is over. If you have other reasons to get a new union then discuss that. The dual agenda at National never existed except in webboard warriors minds and even if it did, perestroika has come.
09-21-2010, 10:35 AM
#274
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Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
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...The facts are that independent unions do not have any advantages over ALPA in bargaining. SWAPA, the current darling, has only bested our contract since 2005. APA is stuck in neutral facing the problems of negotiating with a company that has lost money for something like 12 quarters in a row. USAPA is a giant joke that has delivered nothing but pain. They all sponge off ALPA as an organized group that has the ability to speak for pilots and has access to lawmakers. Having access to lawmakers gives you a voice but it doesn't allow you to control the government. Even the damn oil companies don't get their way unfettered.
If we form an independent union then ALPA will dissolve. There will be no organized and unified voice for pilots. The independent unions will join CAPA. CAPA will form a central organization to lobby with a unified voice. CAPA will see that rather than hiring outside experts at $1,000 an hour, it would be cheaper to hire full time attorneys and economic experts to make available to all pilot groups when it is their turn to negotiate. CAPA will form Safety and Security committees to look after pilot interests in those specialized areas. CAPA will then see that the entire profession cannot be raised up unless they raise up the groups with the least resources and ability to negotiate, so they will recruit the smaller airlines. Finally, CAPA will lease some vacant office space, oh let's say in Herndon, VA, where they can pry off the ALPA signs from the wall and put up CAPA signs. Wow I will feel much better when that happens...
If we form an independent union then ALPA will dissolve. There will be no organized and unified voice for pilots. The independent unions will join CAPA. CAPA will form a central organization to lobby with a unified voice. CAPA will see that rather than hiring outside experts at $1,000 an hour, it would be cheaper to hire full time attorneys and economic experts to make available to all pilot groups when it is their turn to negotiate. CAPA will form Safety and Security committees to look after pilot interests in those specialized areas. CAPA will then see that the entire profession cannot be raised up unless they raise up the groups with the least resources and ability to negotiate, so they will recruit the smaller airlines. Finally, CAPA will lease some vacant office space, oh let's say in Herndon, VA, where they can pry off the ALPA signs from the wall and put up CAPA signs. Wow I will feel much better when that happens...
As union guys, our only strength is in numbers, our only weapons are: political influence, collective bargaining and strike.
If we brake off into smaller splinter groups, we'll end up like Afghan politics: nobody really in charge, anything goes and no end in sight to any improvement because each group has their own agenda.
Look at USAPA and tell me that doesn't look like Afghan politics...
A new untested union with limited resources and a divided pilot group* is not a good way to enter into contract negotiations.
Cheers
George
* Do you really think 80-90% of all pilots will vote to decertify ALPA? More likely the vote will be somewhat close.
Last edited by georgetg; 09-21-2010 at 10:38 AM. Reason: yeah yeah, tell me about it....
09-21-2010, 10:36 AM
#275
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
I don't go to the DALPA forums. Too big of a PITA to log on only to watch guys snipe at each other.
I don't know any of the 3 characters. I just meant to point out that they represent a fair cross section. IOW, this isn't made up solely of a small subset of our pilot group. In that respect, it's a good start.
As for the individuals themselves, I don't know. Like many, I'm frustrated with ALPA National (not our MEC). Whether DPA is the answer remains to be seen. A web page does not a union make and from what little I have seen, I'm not overly impressed. But I'm glad that the discourse has started.
I don't know any of the 3 characters. I just meant to point out that they represent a fair cross section. IOW, this isn't made up solely of a small subset of our pilot group. In that respect, it's a good start.
As for the individuals themselves, I don't know. Like many, I'm frustrated with ALPA National (not our MEC). Whether DPA is the answer remains to be seen. A web page does not a union make and from what little I have seen, I'm not overly impressed. But I'm glad that the discourse has started.
They didn't work out well at all, but I'm not telling you anything you don't know. But, I understand why the FAs left the Teamsters.........it was this argument only on steroids. AMFA got in because the mechanics were tired of their voices being watered down by rampers, agents etc. Sort of like our voices being watered down by RJ guys.
I guess the point is, be careful what you ask for. So yes, the arguments aren't fresh ones, I just hope we would be smart enough to learn from those mistakes if we go another way.
Ferd
I guess the point is, be careful what you ask for. So yes, the arguments aren't fresh ones, I just hope we would be smart enough to learn from those mistakes if we go another way.
Ferd
What was it Lincoln said: nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
Which is my issue with elections, if I can't truly trust the people I elect (speaking of congress), how in the world can I trust people who I don't elect and are not held accountable? Speaking of dopey.
09-21-2010, 10:42 AM
#276
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Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 114
Has it worked that way in the past?????
Your Rep's have less input now then they have ever had.....
What makes you think that Past Performance will not Equal Future Results.......
Delta Pilots Association
www.delta-pilots.org/
09-21-2010, 11:13 AM
#277
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
That is definately a possibility. Yet, define "decent contract"? You know THE FIRST thing most guys will do is turn to compensation, look at their place on the grid (and up as well as to the left). What if ALPA/DPA/etc does indeed deliver that grand slam 20-30-40% raise whopper? Was that a "victory"? What if the E190/195 or C series is outsourced to make it happen? Is that whopper, which will then be gutted during the next downturn (along with the jobs themselves due to the very same outsourcing that made it possible)? Until the pilot group reads every letter of section one and only moves on if that is industry leading (more like industry dominating) then it really won't matter what brand of union runs the show or how much their secretaries make (current insane salaries not withstanding). If every member has to call every rep every day about scope, and turn down a massive earth shattering raise and maybe even an illusory fake promise of the return of the A fund, triple dipping work rules for 0.00003% of the pilot group or any other pipe dream and force them to go back to work until they get scope right, even if it takes years, then it really won't matter. And scope isn't just about RJ's. It's very much about the terms and conditions of ALL foreign and domestic code shares, the RAH separate certificate trick nonsense, holding company issues and the like.
09-21-2010, 11:21 AM
#278
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
As for consolidation, the regionals are consolidating as well. And they have management's with hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank and massive pilot groups with MEC's chomping at the bit to crack that next seat range by any means necessary. You can better believe focusing on (outsourced) RJ growth is THE top priority. The only issue that may tie it is tightening up the loop holes for fireign and domestic code shares and interlining. But RJ scope is a BFD.
09-21-2010, 11:43 AM
#280
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Bebe Bus De L'Air Assistant Aerial Conveyance Facilitator
Posts: 351
But you get the gist. There could be an umbrella group that would advocate the interests of mainline pilots.
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