Delta Pilots Association
11-22-2010, 06:03 AM
#2761
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 631
It has been done, and will probably be done again.
P2P is being started up again with the intention of it being a standing committee going forward. I too strongly beleive in education of the pilot group. I spend many LAYO's doing just that. You are correct, most guys do not know and many do not care. I do submit that the information is out there if you seek it. Websites like this have made it very easy for the lazy pilot to up his level of knowledge ten fold by just reading the back and forth.
Add to it what ALPA National is doing with the education committee, all of the e-mails DALPA sends out about contracts sections, Retirement and Insurance, etc, if one just keeps up on that reading their level of knowledge goes up a ton. It does take work though. Most just want the answer they need at the moment they need it though.
P2P is being started up again with the intention of it being a standing committee going forward. I too strongly beleive in education of the pilot group. I spend many LAYO's doing just that. You are correct, most guys do not know and many do not care. I do submit that the information is out there if you seek it. Websites like this have made it very easy for the lazy pilot to up his level of knowledge ten fold by just reading the back and forth.
Add to it what ALPA National is doing with the education committee, all of the e-mails DALPA sends out about contracts sections, Retirement and Insurance, etc, if one just keeps up on that reading their level of knowledge goes up a ton. It does take work though. Most just want the answer they need at the moment they need it though.
Emails are great for hotel updates, but not for something this important... IMO of course.
11-22-2010, 06:05 AM
#2762
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Dragon;
P2P will still do some of the pilot to pilot stuff, but there are a few ideas that seem to have gained traction that will have these volunteers doing events near where they live and not base dependent. There is also some talk of what you say. The end goal is an educated and informed pilot group. The Chair has some great ideas and the support to run with them.
I suggest seeing what it is all about. Where you live, you probably have a few guys that could meet every few months.
P2P will still do some of the pilot to pilot stuff, but there are a few ideas that seem to have gained traction that will have these volunteers doing events near where they live and not base dependent. There is also some talk of what you say. The end goal is an educated and informed pilot group. The Chair has some great ideas and the support to run with them.
I suggest seeing what it is all about. Where you live, you probably have a few guys that could meet every few months.
11-22-2010, 06:05 AM
#2763
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
You second question begs a different answer. Somebody posted the best answer to the negotiators typical question of: "What are you willing to pay for that?" My answer from now on... ALPA National.
11-22-2010, 06:28 AM
#2764
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
In reality, these were the pay rates at LUV, with comparisons to DAL on the 737:
1994:
LUV - $129/hr
DAL - $139/hr
2001:
LUV - $141/hr
DAL - $202/hr
2004:
LUV - $180/hr
DAL - $156 (concessions signed this year)
As you can see, the LUV rates didn't make a big jump until 2004 and after. Until that point, they severely lagged the industry during their entire history. The only reason they are the highest now is because everyone else went though bankruptcy and they were able to avoid it because of some excellent fuel heding strategies by their management team.
Which part of the language would you like to see? ALPA helped us achieve big improvements in this area.
1994:
LUV - $129/hr
DAL - $139/hr
2001:
LUV - $141/hr
DAL - $202/hr
2004:
LUV - $180/hr
DAL - $156 (concessions signed this year)
As you can see, the LUV rates didn't make a big jump until 2004 and after. Until that point, they severely lagged the industry during their entire history. The only reason they are the highest now is because everyone else went though bankruptcy and they were able to avoid it because of some excellent fuel heding strategies by their management team.
Which part of the language would you like to see? ALPA helped us achieve big improvements in this area.
You're wrong about the DAL 737 rates.
I was hired by DAL in 1990 and for some reason I still have a copy of all the DAL pay rates at that time.
Here they are:
02 Mar 90 737-200 (the -300 was slightly more)
$148.45
01 Sep 92 737-200
$155.88
01 Aug 94 737-200
$158.99 (That's 20 bucks an hour more than your number)
It's also $30.00 an hour more than SWA.
DAL's hourly rate was more than 20% greater than SWA's. I consider that significant.
11-22-2010, 08:17 AM
#2765
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
PCL,
You're wrong about the DAL 737 rates.
I was hired by DAL in 1990 and for some reason I still have a copy of all the DAL pay rates at that time.
Here they are:
02 Mar 90 737-200 (the -300 was slightly more)
$148.45
01 Sep 92 737-200
$155.88
01 Aug 94 737-200
$158.99 (That's 20 bucks an hour more than your number)
It's also $30.00 an hour more than SWA.
DAL's hourly rate was more than 20% greater than SWA's. I consider that significant.
You're wrong about the DAL 737 rates.
I was hired by DAL in 1990 and for some reason I still have a copy of all the DAL pay rates at that time.
Here they are:
02 Mar 90 737-200 (the -300 was slightly more)
$148.45
01 Sep 92 737-200
$155.88
01 Aug 94 737-200
$158.99 (That's 20 bucks an hour more than your number)
It's also $30.00 an hour more than SWA.
DAL's hourly rate was more than 20% greater than SWA's. I consider that significant.
11-22-2010, 08:18 AM
#2766
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 243
Carl, The Delta 1113 contract was amendable last spring. The merger contract extended the amendable date to fall more in line with the NWA amendable date. That was one of several reasons I voted no on the joint contract.
I would love a restoration contract. It would be incredible for me. The issue is I don't see any way to push through a contract that would increase Delta's cost 2 billion dollars a year while working under the RLA. If we hold that out as the minimum we will still be working under this contract 5 years after the amendable date. What I want is a intelligent strategy that will put the most money in my pocket and best quality of life over time. Going for full restoration I don't believe has even a tiny chance of doing that. I and many others believe a smarter concept it to try and get a industry leading contract done at or near the amendable date. Something that would put us at the top of the passenger airlines. The contract should have a 3 to 3.5 year length. That would put us negotiating the next contract in 2016 or 17 instead of still working under the current agreement in that time frame. It also sets the bar for other airlines to top keeping relative costs inline.
At my seniority the relative costs mean little. If I were a junior pilot I would hate to see our cost way out of line with the industry. Every single time a airline has accomplished that it has led to career stagnation and in most case furloughs. Ask the SWA pilots how much growth they have had since they moved from the lower half to top of the industry pay scales.
There is one last point. DALPA represents all pilots at Delta. The last survey both phone and computer asked for what most would consider acceptable in a new contract for pay. The number was surprisingly low. Well below what I will vote to accept. DALPA however has to take direction from the entire pilot group. Not a vocal minority.
I would love a restoration contract. It would be incredible for me. The issue is I don't see any way to push through a contract that would increase Delta's cost 2 billion dollars a year while working under the RLA. If we hold that out as the minimum we will still be working under this contract 5 years after the amendable date. What I want is a intelligent strategy that will put the most money in my pocket and best quality of life over time. Going for full restoration I don't believe has even a tiny chance of doing that. I and many others believe a smarter concept it to try and get a industry leading contract done at or near the amendable date. Something that would put us at the top of the passenger airlines. The contract should have a 3 to 3.5 year length. That would put us negotiating the next contract in 2016 or 17 instead of still working under the current agreement in that time frame. It also sets the bar for other airlines to top keeping relative costs inline.
At my seniority the relative costs mean little. If I were a junior pilot I would hate to see our cost way out of line with the industry. Every single time a airline has accomplished that it has led to career stagnation and in most case furloughs. Ask the SWA pilots how much growth they have had since they moved from the lower half to top of the industry pay scales.
There is one last point. DALPA represents all pilots at Delta. The last survey both phone and computer asked for what most would consider acceptable in a new contract for pay. The number was surprisingly low. Well below what I will vote to accept. DALPA however has to take direction from the entire pilot group. Not a vocal minority.
An initial 20% bump in pay over 2012 rates would make us even +/- a few dollars with southwest (on 737 equip) in 2012 but still a little below 2001 rates.
Follow that with 6%/yr for 3 years are you are at 2004 rates.
This is strictly pay rates and not work rules/goodies. The current SW work rules would put them at a disadvantage vs our contract at the same $ amount so we should still have room to make some needed improvements in QOL issues as well.
If your definition of full restorations is trying to get back to the previous high I think that it is doable. If it is 2004 rates and contract adjusted for inflation than I agree that it is not going to happen.
-vpr
11-22-2010, 08:43 AM
#2767
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
Your numbers are right in line with what I expect on the next contract. Someone did a fairly detailed calculation on restoration on the other forum. His number needed for a full restoration was about a 65 percent raise. In addition going back to all the old work rules ect.. would require another 3000 pilots on the list. We went from a 600 average block hour per pilot to 800 hours with the 1113 contract.
11-22-2010, 08:45 AM
#2768
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
Why not???? After BK DAL shed tons of debt and high interest loans. They renegotiated leases and terminated the DB plan. Their actual operating costs especially when adjusted for inflation is well below that of the pre-BK era.
11-22-2010, 08:46 AM
#2769
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
PCL,
You're wrong about the DAL 737 rates.
I was hired by DAL in 1990 and for some reason I still have a copy of all the DAL pay rates at that time.
Here they are:
02 Mar 90 737-200 (the -300 was slightly more)
$148.45
01 Sep 92 737-200
$155.88
01 Aug 94 737-200
$158.99 (That's 20 bucks an hour more than your number)
It's also $30.00 an hour more than SWA.
DAL's hourly rate was more than 20% greater than SWA's. I consider that significant.
You're wrong about the DAL 737 rates.
I was hired by DAL in 1990 and for some reason I still have a copy of all the DAL pay rates at that time.
Here they are:
02 Mar 90 737-200 (the -300 was slightly more)
$148.45
01 Sep 92 737-200
$155.88
01 Aug 94 737-200
$158.99 (That's 20 bucks an hour more than your number)
It's also $30.00 an hour more than SWA.
DAL's hourly rate was more than 20% greater than SWA's. I consider that significant.
One of the things you also need to look at is how much you're actually getting paid... hourly rates are just part of the equation and way overly emphasized! We only havea 70 hour guarantee, so to compare us to a company with a 75 hour guarantee, we need 107% of their rates just to be equal in hourly pay. Or say, UPS who has an 82 hour guarantee you're looking at 117% increase above their current book value just to be equal!
11-22-2010, 08:48 AM
#2770
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
One of the things you also need to look at is how much you're actually getting paid... hourly rates are just part of the equation and way overly emphasized! We only havea 70 hour guarantee, so to compare us to a company with a 75 hour guarantee, we need 107% of their rates just to be equal in hourly pay. Or say, UPS who has an 82 hour guarantee you're looking at 117% increase above their current book value just to be equal!
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