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11-21-2010, 12:49 PM

#2721

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Recall that the LUV pay rates until 2005 were well below that of all of the legacies.

No they weren't. Their rates were below, but not well below. And LUV's work rules have always been incredible for a long time. All accomplished without ALPA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Their pay until the CH11 era paled in comparison to anyone else

You're just flat wrong about this.

Carl

11-21-2010, 12:53 PM

#2722

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Yes, UPS and FDX will probably keep their pensions, but I would suspect that even with a moderate gain in 2012 our 777 rate will top theirs.

Not if you have anything to say about it. You're the one saying that Delta pilots should not expect any increases above what future inflation can justify.

Have you purchased a spine since then?

Carl

11-21-2010, 01:00 PM

#2723

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Yes, how suspicious that someone who's been doing ALPA work for years might know ALPA reps for another airline.

You black helicopter types crack me up.

For those of you here who haven't already figured this guy out, allow me translate:

He's apparently an AirTran union rep and deeply in love with ALPA. Love is always hard to argue with, as we all know.

His biggest fear is that ALPA will be no more if DAL forms their own union. He deeply hopes that SWAPA will join ALPA so that their merged seniority list won't go so badly against him. If DAL leaves ALPA, UAL/CAL will probably go next leaving ALPA as a regional only union. SWAPA might not want to join a regional only union. Thus the need for fear and scare tactics.

This is why a non-Delta pilot is so strongly opposing our look at an in-house union. It is totally self-serving.

Carl

11-21-2010, 01:03 PM

#2724

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

T-Not only looking at the WB super senior rates man, just saving typing space. 1113C took a huge chunk or progress from us. We all want it back, do not mistake that. If trends continue that may in fact be a better possibility.

NO YOU DON'T! You've only worked under this BK contract, so there's nothing for you to get back. More importantly, you say that Delta pilots should not expect any pay raises higher than future inflation would allow. Lots of us do want restoration...you don't.

Carl

11-21-2010, 01:36 PM

#2725

scambo1

The Brown Dot +1

Joined APC: Jun 2009

Position: 777B

Posts: 7,775

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

For those of you here who haven't already figured this guy out, allow me translate:

He's apparently an AirTran union rep and deeply in love with ALPA. Love is always hard to argue with, as we all know.

His biggest fear is that ALPA will be no more if DAL forms their own union. He deeply hopes that SWAPA will join ALPA so that their merged seniority list won't go so badly against him. If DAL leaves ALPA, UAL/CAL will probably go next leaving ALPA as a regional only union. SWAPA might not want to join a regional only union. Thus the need for fear and scare tactics.

This is why a non-Delta pilot is so strongly opposing our look at an in-house union. It is totally self-serving.

Carl

It might be more useful if PCL would post the Airtran (ALPA) contract merger language to the DPA thread so we can all watch what Seth (and friends) negotiate away to make the LUV + Airtran merger happen.

11-21-2010, 02:51 PM

#2726

sailingfun

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Feb 2008

Posts: 19,599

Quote:

Originally Posted by capncrunch

Folks like SWA, UPS and NetJets managed do get it done very well without ALPA. Again, the idea that ALPA has the only negotiators to get the job done right is ridiculous.

And yet none of the above have ever negotiated a true industry leading contract. They have simply piggy backed off ALPA contracts with the exception of netjets which is really has zero relevance when talking airline contracts. Netjets has set a nice standard for corporate operations and I have several friends there.

11-21-2010, 03:51 PM

#2727

tim123

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Jan 2008

Position: 320A

Posts: 333

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Seth is past retirement age. He keeps working side projects for ALPA after his retirement because he believes so strongly in the Association. He easily could have left ALPA many times during his career to make far more money at a management law firm, but he instead stayed at ALPA to do the work that he believes in. You may know some lawyers, but you certainly don't know Seth or his motivations.

I guess pilots aren't the only workers that ALPA wants to raise the retirement age on.

11-21-2010, 03:51 PM

#2728

PCL_128

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Nov 2005

Position: Recovering Airline Pilot

Posts: 460

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

That has nothing to do with the question. The question is: IF Seth is really the master of the universe with regard to negotiations, would he not be contractable by an outside union? You say no. I say, you know nothing.

Only if ALPA chose to sign that contract. Do you really think ALPA will sign a contract with the DPA if you decertify ALPA? Of course not.

Quote:

This is all correct. I've never said anything else. But although NMB is not required to release the parties, there has never been a more egregious example as the AMR case. In my opinion, a judge will decide if the NMB is using the lack of a requirement to release the parties as a weapon to remove labor's right to strike in the transportation industry.

You might want to read the Act again. There is no allowance for judicial oversight of NMB decisions. The NMB is the ultimate authority over the Section 6 process. They alone decide whether to release a bargaining unit. If you think a judge is going to force the NMB to allow a pilot group to strike over demands that would bankrupt the carrier, then you're off your rocker.

Quote:

And you were doing so well! This paragraph is utter BS in its entirety. Even more than your normal opinions that you try to pawn off as fact.

Check back with me in a year, Carl. How much you want to bet that the APA either significantly reduces their demands or is still stuck in a dead standstill then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Neither do you ace. Stop making this stuff up.

Wrong again, "Ace."

Quote:

Seth is indeed past retirement age - which is yet another reason that ALPA doesn't hold all the universe's cards with regard to negotiation expertise. What happens when he DOES retire in your world? Oh yes...you surrender to management before negotiations.

Like I said, Seth is only one of the experts. ALPA has many others, like Bruce York, Art Luby, and Bill Roberts, to name a few. ALPA will be just fine when Seth retires from his IPSC work. Right now he doesn't even work with ALPA carriers.

Quote:

You are embarrassing yourself by making such a claim. Many independent unions (both domestically and internationally) make far more money than we do. Are you really this clueless?

[/QUOTE]

In reality, the UPS pilots make less than their ALPA counterparts at FDX. When you factor in retirement contributions, the ALPA pilots at Alaska make about the same amount as SWA pilots. The international unions that you refer to are almost all members of IFALPA, the International Federation of Air Line Pilot Associations, of which ALPA was the founding member way back when. They know better than to think that they can do things on their own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

And he assisted in convincing NWA and DAL union reps to cave in during BK contracts. BK contracts that kept BK rates in place for years after BK emergence.

Nope. Seth was retired by that time. But those were the right decisions, anyway, as distasteful as they may have been. With the bankruptcy laws as they are, trying to ignore the 1113(c) process would be suicide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Great example of character assassination of anyone who doesn't tow the ALPA line. Also a great example of changing the subject when the facts don't suit you.

I don't care what Joe's background was when it comes to the facts of the discussion. You claim that Seth is the end all and a tough negotiator. This guy gives his personal example of just the opposite. His rhetorical question as well as mine is: "How could this happen?" How could a contract be improved after Seth is removed? Impossibe!...Right?

Carl

You should care about Joe's background. After all, he's the one trying to steal your flying. Isn't that one of your biggest complaints about ALPA? Allowing outsourcing? Joey is the one pushing as hard as he can to force ALPA to allow unlimited outsourcing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

No they weren't. Their rates were below, but not well below. And LUV's work rules have always been incredible for a long time. All accomplished without ALPA.

Carl, you should just stop typing so you can stop making a fool of yourself. The facts are so easy to come by, that you can't possibly throw these ridiculous claims out there and not expect someone to verify them. In reality, these were the pay rates at LUV, with comparisons to DAL on the 737:

1994:

LUV - $129/hr
DAL - $139/hr

2001:

LUV - $141/hr
DAL - $202/hr

2004:

LUV - $180/hr
DAL - $156 (concessions signed this year)

As you can see, the LUV rates didn't make a big jump until 2004 and after. Until that point, they severely lagged the industry during their entire history. The only reason they are the highest now is because everyone else went though bankruptcy and they were able to avoid it because of some excellent fuel heding strategies by their management team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scambo1

Which part of the language would you like to see? ALPA helped us achieve big improvements in this area.