Originally Posted by acl65pilot

I would suspect that even with a moderate gain in 2012 our 777/747 rate will top theirs.

Originally Posted by capncrunch

I think I'm in your camp. When someone who is not a Delta pilot comes out of the woodwork to tell us how it is, it's a little suspect.

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Recall that the LUV pay rates until 2005 were well below that of all of the legacies. Their business plan and fuel hedging allowed them to go after the Legacies low hanging fruit for cheaper fares that we could offer with this hedging program. Their pay until the CH11 era paled in comparison to anyone else, and not many ppl "dreamed" of flying the 737 for SWA until that happened.

By default our pay and bennies got a hit in CH11, and they just stayed level. The cargo companies have never gotten to our previous level, and since their companies make a lot of money on a decent margin they cannot drag them in to CH11 to destroy their contracts. Remember that these places had pay that was nothing compared to ours as well.

We are looking at a very narrow snapshot of this industry's history when we state that these carriers are so much better than our. Yes, UPS and FDX will probably keep their pensions, but I would suspect that even with a moderate gain in 2012 our 777 rate will top theirs.

We do need to work on regaining a lot including work rules, but look at the whole history not just the last ten years because it give in incorrect picture of the history of these three carriers and their compensation levels.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Are you really stupid enough to believe that ALPA is going to sell off its wholly owned subsidiary to a band of fools at a new independent union that will fail in no time flat? Really? You seriously lack credibility with this kind of nonsense, Carl.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Mr. Rosen is one of the best. All of the others also work at ALPA. Bruce York, Art Luby, Bill Roberts, etc. They come to work at ALPA after having achieved years of experience in labor law and negotiations, because ALPA is the best job out there for labor attorneys. You don't find experienced labor attorneys and negotiators at independent unions. When it comes to arbitrating grievances, they can get by with outside counsel, but their success rates lag ALPA's significantly. ALPA's success in arbitration is about double the labor average in this country. When it comes to Section 6 negotiations, everyone comes to ALPA for assistance, because they can't do it themselves. Of course, splinter unions like USAPA get no assistance from ALPA, and they'll be mired with a bankruptcy era contract forever. The DPA would be no different. You'll have no experienced RLA negotiator. No one who knows how to deal with the NMB. No one with connections at the White House or in Congress. You'll be all alone. Not a good prospect in Section 6.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

And you REALLY don't know Seth Rosen if you think he'll leave ALPA. He's worked at ALPA since 1971.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

You should study the law a little bit more. Nowhere in the Act does it require the NMB to release you to strike. The NMB's charter is two-fold: 1) Prevent disruptions to air and rail commerce, and 2) Assist in resolving labor/management disputes in the air and rail industries.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

They won't take an action that would violate that first mandate unless they feel that it is the way to a deal. In the case of the APA/AMR, they will never release the APA until they adjust their demands, because the NMB knows that there won't be an agreement reached if there is a strike, because the APA's demands are unsustainable for AMR, and no AMR executive will agree, no matter how long a strike drags on. A disruption to commerce occurs, and there is still no resolution to a dispute. That's not how the NMB and the RLA work. If you don't come with what the NMB considers to be realistic demands, then you aren't getting release. Period.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Yes, how suspicious that someone who's been doing ALPA work for years might know ALPA reps for another airline. You black helicopter types crack me up.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Seth is past retirement age. He keeps working side projects for ALPA after his retirement because he believes so strongly in the Association. He easily could have left ALPA many times during his career to make far more money at a management law firm, but he instead stayed at ALPA to do the work that he believes in. You may know some lawyers, but you certainly don't know Seth or his motivations.

Originally Posted by tsquare

Here is a classic post that goes right to the heart of the matter. You pom pom wavers seem to believe that we have the ultimate team up there in Herndon. They are irreplaceable... they are beyond fault... NOBODY can do ANYTHING without their help... Thank God they are there... To put it in a football context.. it is not about what you did yesterday/last year/in 1971... it is what are you gonna do for me NOW... There is a website called firecoachmeyer.com. The man won 2 national championships.. and there is a movement to get rid of him... why should we expect less from an organization that has never won a national championship yet continues to hang around? NOBODY at alpa national is irreplaceable.... nobody. And if they don't realize that, it is all the more reason to send them packing.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Seth assisted in negotiating the most expensive pilot contracts in the history of the profession (NWA '98, UAL '00, DAL '01, etc.). To imply that he's a pushover is absurd.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

But I expect nothing less from a founding member of the RJDC. For those DAL pilots who don't know, JoeMerchant was one of the "officers" of the RJDC, the Regional Jet Defense Coalition, whose goal was to stop ALPA from placing limits on RJ outsourcing. In other words, they wanted to eliminate scope and destroy our job security, all so they could take our jobs. Fortunately, ALPA fought back and the pilots who were party to the lawsuit got pennies on the dollar for their legal costs as a settlement.

So, you probably don't want to listen to Joey about ALPA.