Delta Pilots Association
11-19-2010, 10:23 AM
#2651
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
There is so much wrong with his reply I will only mention one thing.
Pennies on the dollar for retirement? Most pilots will recover between 70 and 85 percent of what they were due. I would hardly call the pennies. There are 4 different components to the recovery. The MPP money, The note Money, the PBGC money and DC plan contributions. New pilots may actually exceed what the old plan provided because of front loaded contributions. Notice I did not mention the claim or merger stock money. Both of those were to help offset the pay cuts under the 1113 contract. Yes it went into the retirement fund up to the 415 limits but you could have recouped a portion of that in cash by a reduction in 401k contributions to equal the amount deposited. One other thing to keep in mind. The Delta MEC made a decision to allow the plan termination because they felt that the cost to retain the plan would have impacted the junior pilots far more then the senior pilots. They felt that going for the note payment and stock to the PBGC in the termination would better serve the entire seniority list. Keep in mind the plan was frozen under the Malone administration.
Pennies on the dollar for retirement? Most pilots will recover between 70 and 85 percent of what they were due. I would hardly call the pennies. There are 4 different components to the recovery. The MPP money, The note Money, the PBGC money and DC plan contributions. New pilots may actually exceed what the old plan provided because of front loaded contributions. Notice I did not mention the claim or merger stock money. Both of those were to help offset the pay cuts under the 1113 contract. Yes it went into the retirement fund up to the 415 limits but you could have recouped a portion of that in cash by a reduction in 401k contributions to equal the amount deposited. One other thing to keep in mind. The Delta MEC made a decision to allow the plan termination because they felt that the cost to retain the plan would have impacted the junior pilots far more then the senior pilots. They felt that going for the note payment and stock to the PBGC in the termination would better serve the entire seniority list. Keep in mind the plan was frozen under the Malone administration.
There was no reasonable probability that Delta would ever exit bankruptcy with that battered, beaten pension plan. Rather than hope against hope that we could "save" the pension by destroying the rest of the contract, the MEC decided not to get "double dipped" like US Air and United did. We threw the pension issue on the table from the beginning and were determined not to let management get two bites at the apple. By including the pension up front the Delta MEC came out of bankruptcy with work rules intact, the highest pay rates, the largest claim, and the largest note than any other bankrupt carrier. Also, despite the loss of the 76 seat aircraft, we retained many of the most important scope protections including change of control provisions that prevented the US Air takeover and gave us leverage in the DL/NW merger negotiations.
Everyone was deeply upset at the loss of the pension, it was a tremendous loss for the pilot group. The MEC faced the difficult choice of owning up to reality and trying to make the best plan B possible or fighting a battle that no one considered winnable to "save" the pension. There were no good choices here only a choice to try to minimize the damage and set the stage for future recovery. We have a long way to go, but we have less far to travel than many others. If I didn't say it before, I will say it again, everyone was very upset at the outcome of the pension. Most of the MEC members and administration were "dead-zoners" so they felt the pain as much as anyone else on the seniority list.
11-19-2010, 10:28 AM
#2652
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Ok, Here is a actual pilots benefit who was 50 at termination.
Frozen plan was 96000 per year
Recovery.
PBGC plus stock recovery. 55,200 per year
Note money 323,000
MMPP money 112,000
DC contributions. 260,000- 10 years at 26,000 average per year. 200k average income
Total cash 435,000. Total tax deferred 212,000
10 years for this pilot to retire at 60 rule of eight money should more then double. Total should be close to between 800k and 1 mil at age 60 plus another 350 to 450,000 from DC contributions. base amount of 260,000 plus investment earnings.
So he had a 96,000 a year benefit. He will get 55,200 from the PBGC and have somewhere between 1.1 and 1.5 million in cash at age 60 with modest earning assumptions.
Again lets be serious? Pennies on the dollar? I don't think so. In fact on the Dalpa forum some of the most anti ALPA pilots have reported they believe they will do better then the frozen benefit.
One last point. I did not include a dime of the claim money or merger stock. Add that in and it gets even better but as mentioned those payments were for contract concessions.
Frozen plan was 96000 per year
Recovery.
PBGC plus stock recovery. 55,200 per year
Note money 323,000
MMPP money 112,000
DC contributions. 260,000- 10 years at 26,000 average per year. 200k average income
Total cash 435,000. Total tax deferred 212,000
10 years for this pilot to retire at 60 rule of eight money should more then double. Total should be close to between 800k and 1 mil at age 60 plus another 350 to 450,000 from DC contributions. base amount of 260,000 plus investment earnings.
So he had a 96,000 a year benefit. He will get 55,200 from the PBGC and have somewhere between 1.1 and 1.5 million in cash at age 60 with modest earning assumptions.
Again lets be serious? Pennies on the dollar? I don't think so. In fact on the Dalpa forum some of the most anti ALPA pilots have reported they believe they will do better then the frozen benefit.
One last point. I did not include a dime of the claim money or merger stock. Add that in and it gets even better but as mentioned those payments were for contract concessions.
For the more junior pilots among us, I think it's a no brainer. If I were 20 or 30-something, I would MUCH rather have our current retirement setup than a DB pension! Actually, even at 51, I prefer this. I just wish I hadn't had to more or less start over with building my retirement halfway through my career.
This is just my opinion (and take it FWIW because you know what they say about investment advice from a pilot), but our BrokerageLink is extremely valuable and is the real key to making this work out. A person has to know what they are doing, but it is possible to get a much better risk adjusted return than what you are likely to get with the typical diversified mutual fund portfolio.
Now the standard of living and overall value of our careers is a whole different topic. We are massively behind in terms of compensation and the stability of our jobs continues to be threatened by scope issues. We need significant restoration to make our standard of living comparable to what most of us reasonably expected when we got into this career. That is going to take some real leadership, vision, and fortitude. I cannot at all agree with the idea that what we have now is the new norm and that we should expect traditional increases from there. Unfortunately, with the current DALPA mentality (which is exhibited by sailingfun), I don't see how we could ever possibly get to where we want to go.
11-19-2010, 10:43 AM
#2653
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Ok, Here is a actual pilots benefit who was 50 at termination.
Frozen plan was 96000 per year
Recovery.
PBGC plus stock recovery. 55,200 per year
Note money 323,000
MMPP money 112,000
DC contributions. 260,000- 10 years at 26,000 average per year. 200k average income
Total cash 435,000. Total tax deferred 212,000
10 years for this pilot to retire at 60 rule of eight money should more then double. Total should be close to between 800k and 1 mil at age 60 plus another 350 to 450,000 from DC contributions. base amount of 260,000 plus investment earnings.
So he had a 96,000 a year benefit. He will get 55,200 from the PBGC and have somewhere between 1.1 and 1.5 million in cash at age 60 with modest earning assumptions.
Again lets be serious? Pennies on the dollar? I don't think so. In fact on the Dalpa forum some of the most anti ALPA pilots have reported they believe they will do better then the frozen benefit.
One last point. I did not include a dime of the claim money or merger stock. Add that in and it gets even better but as mentioned those payments were for contract concessions.
Frozen plan was 96000 per year
Recovery.
PBGC plus stock recovery. 55,200 per year
Note money 323,000
MMPP money 112,000
DC contributions. 260,000- 10 years at 26,000 average per year. 200k average income
Total cash 435,000. Total tax deferred 212,000
10 years for this pilot to retire at 60 rule of eight money should more then double. Total should be close to between 800k and 1 mil at age 60 plus another 350 to 450,000 from DC contributions. base amount of 260,000 plus investment earnings.
So he had a 96,000 a year benefit. He will get 55,200 from the PBGC and have somewhere between 1.1 and 1.5 million in cash at age 60 with modest earning assumptions.
Again lets be serious? Pennies on the dollar? I don't think so. In fact on the Dalpa forum some of the most anti ALPA pilots have reported they believe they will do better then the frozen benefit.
One last point. I did not include a dime of the claim money or merger stock. Add that in and it gets even better but as mentioned those payments were for contract concessions.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't go back to a DB plan for all the tea in China, but using numbers from the PBGC and any other overtaxed gubbamint agency is scary to say the least..
11-19-2010, 10:51 AM
#2654
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
I would disagree on only one point. The pension was terminated because it was funded at less than 50%, billions underfunded, and if the fund were restored it faced another run on the bank by pilots retiring with lump sums. There was no bank, hedge fund, or any other entity that would loan Delta any money to exit bankruptcy knowing that the entire amount could get swallowed into the pension and leave the company in the same boat it was in when it went into bankruptcy.
There was no reasonable probability that Delta would ever exit bankruptcy with that battered, beaten pension plan. Rather than hope against hope that we could "save" the pension by destroying the rest of the contract, the MEC decided not to get "double dipped" like US Air and United did. We threw the pension issue on the table from the beginning and were determined not to let management get two bites at the apple. By including the pension up front the Delta MEC came out of bankruptcy with work rules intact, the highest pay rates, the largest claim, and the largest note than any other bankrupt carrier. Also, despite the loss of the 76 seat aircraft, we retained many of the most important scope protections including change of control provisions that prevented the US Air takeover and gave us leverage in the DL/NW merger negotiations.
Everyone was deeply upset at the loss of the pension, it was a tremendous loss for the pilot group. The MEC faced the difficult choice of owning up to reality and trying to make the best plan B possible or fighting a battle that no one considered winnable to "save" the pension. There were no good choices here only a choice to try to minimize the damage and set the stage for future recovery. We have a long way to go, but we have less far to travel than many others. If I didn't say it before, I will say it again, everyone was very upset at the outcome of the pension. Most of the MEC members and administration were "dead-zoners" so they felt the pain as much as anyone else on the seniority list.
There was no reasonable probability that Delta would ever exit bankruptcy with that battered, beaten pension plan. Rather than hope against hope that we could "save" the pension by destroying the rest of the contract, the MEC decided not to get "double dipped" like US Air and United did. We threw the pension issue on the table from the beginning and were determined not to let management get two bites at the apple. By including the pension up front the Delta MEC came out of bankruptcy with work rules intact, the highest pay rates, the largest claim, and the largest note than any other bankrupt carrier. Also, despite the loss of the 76 seat aircraft, we retained many of the most important scope protections including change of control provisions that prevented the US Air takeover and gave us leverage in the DL/NW merger negotiations.
Everyone was deeply upset at the loss of the pension, it was a tremendous loss for the pilot group. The MEC faced the difficult choice of owning up to reality and trying to make the best plan B possible or fighting a battle that no one considered winnable to "save" the pension. There were no good choices here only a choice to try to minimize the damage and set the stage for future recovery. We have a long way to go, but we have less far to travel than many others. If I didn't say it before, I will say it again, everyone was very upset at the outcome of the pension. Most of the MEC members and administration were "dead-zoners" so they felt the pain as much as anyone else on the seniority list.
I'm going to withhold judgement until The Manager shows up with his facts, figures and math. He's knows much more about what transpired and why then you or Sailing. He's loaded with all the facts and actuarial data. You guys are going to look soooooooo bad when he gets done with you.
(tic)
11-19-2010, 10:56 AM
#2655
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
Do you seriously the PBGC will be solvent then.. or better yet.. that they will actually pay when we hit that age? or will they say.. like Social Security.. that the retirement age, and therefore your eligibility to get those monies is... 70?????
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't go back to a DB plan for all the tea in China, but using numbers from the PBGC and any other overtaxed gubbamint agency is scary to say the least..
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't go back to a DB plan for all the tea in China, but using numbers from the PBGC and any other overtaxed gubbamint agency is scary to say the least..
11-19-2010, 11:14 AM
#2656
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
So let's use the numbers of an airline that may or may not be solvent to make comparisons to judge our losses. Airlines never go out of business. Those DB plans were money in the bank, a sure thing for decades to come. We should have gone all in on for our airline DB plans.
Hey Einstein.. where on earth did I say anything like I think it was a mistake to get rid of the DB plans? Find one post before you do your little rollie eyes thing in my direction. All I was saying is that to use the PBGC as any sort of equalizing element in the equation is fairly risky because we all know how the guybbamint will rape and pillage any "free" money they can get their hands on.. and change the finish line for those that are eligible... or have you not been paying attention to social security?
11-19-2010, 11:33 AM
#2657
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 710
Here is a sample post from FLIGHTINFO "Reasons why Airtran guys are going to LUV SWA"
Good thread to read, and I am SURE ALPA does not want you to know all the goodies SWA has in their PWA compared to ours. Just a few below:
Ty,
Please take another look friend. You seem to have grossly underestimated our total compensation package. There is NO place on our senioirty list where a AAI pilot will be worse off. As long as the deal goes forward your pilots simply cannot lose!
I'm a 7 year FO who doesn't pick up much and I'm at 145 as of November 5th. I have peers who pull in considerably more.
210k is a 37% increase from 153k. However, the average SWA guy flies 110 trips per month, which is $245k. That is a 60% increase from AAI 12-year captain pay.
AAI FO pay is more in the +80% range. As a 5th year SWA FO, I make 12-year AAI captain pay (according to this website). I'm a commuter and NOT a varsity league bidder.
Don't forget the hugely reduced medical benefits, 1% union dues reduction, AMA overnights, ....
Some of the major ones have been covered; the ones below are not so obvious but total up to some nice beenies in the minds of some.
* For military reservists/guard; positive relationships between flt ops, union and pilots in managing time off; SWA doesn't forget you when you are deployed...make sure you request the SWA/SWAPA Military Handbook for details
* Hotel Committee that is run by pilots/FAs and not corporate bean counters; great hotels managed by our own with an ear toward crew members; grievances are pretty non-existent in regards to hotel issues
* Free internet at nearly all hotels; discounts on food/drink totals 10-50% in hotels
* Multiple tax-free plans to take advantage of, income dependent; Roth & regular 401K, excess plans, profit sharing (5.8% last 5 yrs, 7.19% last 10 yrs), 9.3% company (less than AAI but higher SWA income totals results in more money)
* Highly rated 401K fund selections (see my cut and past from an article rating SWAPA 401K Retirement Funds as being #4 rated by BrightScope)
* Free Morningstar resources available for planning purposes;
* Targeted Retirement Fund mixing of funds; 95% of investments can be managed within a Schwab Personal Choice Retirement Account (PCRA) allowing the pilot to choose any other investment options other than SWAPA chosen funds (manage your own risk); can be stocks, EFTs, funds, etc.
* 2 weeks of vacation 1-5 yrs, 3 weeks 6-10 yrs, 4 weeks 11-18 yrs, 5 weeks 19 yrs or more seniority;
* floating vacations can be sold back at 26.5 TFP and beginning by the time the deal is done, one can fly during your vacation for additional money if you choose to
* No PBS; won't come to pass either with the current efficiency of operations
* avg duty day of 8:35; avg flt time of just over 6 hrs;
* avg 1 "scheduled" aircraft swap in a 3 day; slightly over 1 hr ground time avg
* avg legs per day is 3 with avg flt time per leg of 2 hrs
* avg turn time on normal flights of around 30 minutes
* All of the above thanks to the multiple rigs built into the system to encourage more efficient/more flight time while on trips
* several family insurance options with one that is no cost to the pilot (yes there are reasonable benefits attached to it; I used it last year and good for those without small children
* Great FOs; lots of different types of background
* More FOs on the NC/MA than CAs, bodes well for making sure the junior pilots perspectives are being presented
* Healthy SWAPA reserve fund and sound fiscal oversight in place with a great Budget Director
* Great benefit staff at SWAPA that have helped many pilots who have become disabled or need questions answered quickly
* Ditto for contract admin....avg 10+ yrs of experience in dealing with contract issues by these folks
* Training center is not adversarial; new PC checkride format is positive change promoting better learning; questions on orals come from single study source...no surprises
* Vacation trading is now available on line just like regular trips
* Biding for open time now permits 1.5 bids allowing competitive bidding against those bidding straight time pay (come to SWAPA briefing on 30 Nov to learn more)
* Last phase of open time bidding (1Q11) will allow more automated bids for short notice call outs so less JA; however JA does pay 2.0 now versus 1.5 before
* Jetway trades with pilots legal to fly with just a phone call to scheduling...very nice on those last flights to domicile from your home!!!
* Gary Kelly as CEO!
* Multiple communication methods from the union to the membership (weekly burst emails, twice a month union newspaper, monthly call in conference call to get questions answered from the leadership, good comm during elections)
* Annual budget is presented to membership with general descriptions; voted on/approved by membership
* All BoD and officers are elected by membership; no appointments of execs by BoD; 2 reps per base (8)
* 1% dues
* Wright Amendment goes away mid-'13 making travel to Love (training center) much easier and great new route opportunities (limited to 16 gates but perfect place for -800 combined with 717s to outlying TX cities once change occurs)
* CAs do walkarounds (....just making sure the levity light is on)
* Pilots can have "standing bids" so no longer "I forgot to bid" will result in reserve hell
* More time at home for more pay (but you knew that!
* Never fired a pilot for interpreting valid write ups as "job action" activities
Could go on with more items but many of the obvious ones have been stated already....looking forward to resolving issues and returning value to the customers, shareholders and employees.
Good thread to read, and I am SURE ALPA does not want you to know all the goodies SWA has in their PWA compared to ours. Just a few below:
Ty,
Please take another look friend. You seem to have grossly underestimated our total compensation package. There is NO place on our senioirty list where a AAI pilot will be worse off. As long as the deal goes forward your pilots simply cannot lose!
I'm a 7 year FO who doesn't pick up much and I'm at 145 as of November 5th. I have peers who pull in considerably more.
210k is a 37% increase from 153k. However, the average SWA guy flies 110 trips per month, which is $245k. That is a 60% increase from AAI 12-year captain pay.
AAI FO pay is more in the +80% range. As a 5th year SWA FO, I make 12-year AAI captain pay (according to this website). I'm a commuter and NOT a varsity league bidder.
Don't forget the hugely reduced medical benefits, 1% union dues reduction, AMA overnights, ....
Some of the major ones have been covered; the ones below are not so obvious but total up to some nice beenies in the minds of some.
* For military reservists/guard; positive relationships between flt ops, union and pilots in managing time off; SWA doesn't forget you when you are deployed...make sure you request the SWA/SWAPA Military Handbook for details
* Hotel Committee that is run by pilots/FAs and not corporate bean counters; great hotels managed by our own with an ear toward crew members; grievances are pretty non-existent in regards to hotel issues
* Free internet at nearly all hotels; discounts on food/drink totals 10-50% in hotels
* Multiple tax-free plans to take advantage of, income dependent; Roth & regular 401K, excess plans, profit sharing (5.8% last 5 yrs, 7.19% last 10 yrs), 9.3% company (less than AAI but higher SWA income totals results in more money)
* Highly rated 401K fund selections (see my cut and past from an article rating SWAPA 401K Retirement Funds as being #4 rated by BrightScope)
* Free Morningstar resources available for planning purposes;
* Targeted Retirement Fund mixing of funds; 95% of investments can be managed within a Schwab Personal Choice Retirement Account (PCRA) allowing the pilot to choose any other investment options other than SWAPA chosen funds (manage your own risk); can be stocks, EFTs, funds, etc.
* 2 weeks of vacation 1-5 yrs, 3 weeks 6-10 yrs, 4 weeks 11-18 yrs, 5 weeks 19 yrs or more seniority;
* floating vacations can be sold back at 26.5 TFP and beginning by the time the deal is done, one can fly during your vacation for additional money if you choose to
* No PBS; won't come to pass either with the current efficiency of operations
* avg duty day of 8:35; avg flt time of just over 6 hrs;
* avg 1 "scheduled" aircraft swap in a 3 day; slightly over 1 hr ground time avg
* avg legs per day is 3 with avg flt time per leg of 2 hrs
* avg turn time on normal flights of around 30 minutes
* All of the above thanks to the multiple rigs built into the system to encourage more efficient/more flight time while on trips
* several family insurance options with one that is no cost to the pilot (yes there are reasonable benefits attached to it; I used it last year and good for those without small children
* Great FOs; lots of different types of background
* More FOs on the NC/MA than CAs, bodes well for making sure the junior pilots perspectives are being presented
* Healthy SWAPA reserve fund and sound fiscal oversight in place with a great Budget Director
* Great benefit staff at SWAPA that have helped many pilots who have become disabled or need questions answered quickly
* Ditto for contract admin....avg 10+ yrs of experience in dealing with contract issues by these folks
* Training center is not adversarial; new PC checkride format is positive change promoting better learning; questions on orals come from single study source...no surprises
* Vacation trading is now available on line just like regular trips
* Biding for open time now permits 1.5 bids allowing competitive bidding against those bidding straight time pay (come to SWAPA briefing on 30 Nov to learn more)
* Last phase of open time bidding (1Q11) will allow more automated bids for short notice call outs so less JA; however JA does pay 2.0 now versus 1.5 before
* Jetway trades with pilots legal to fly with just a phone call to scheduling...very nice on those last flights to domicile from your home!!!
* Gary Kelly as CEO!
* Multiple communication methods from the union to the membership (weekly burst emails, twice a month union newspaper, monthly call in conference call to get questions answered from the leadership, good comm during elections)
* Annual budget is presented to membership with general descriptions; voted on/approved by membership
* All BoD and officers are elected by membership; no appointments of execs by BoD; 2 reps per base (8)
* 1% dues
* Wright Amendment goes away mid-'13 making travel to Love (training center) much easier and great new route opportunities (limited to 16 gates but perfect place for -800 combined with 717s to outlying TX cities once change occurs)
* CAs do walkarounds (....just making sure the levity light is on)
* Pilots can have "standing bids" so no longer "I forgot to bid" will result in reserve hell
* More time at home for more pay (but you knew that!
* Never fired a pilot for interpreting valid write ups as "job action" activities
Could go on with more items but many of the obvious ones have been stated already....looking forward to resolving issues and returning value to the customers, shareholders and employees.
I wish our illustrious MEC and contract negotiation team in ATL would be forced to read the SWA contract everyday for two years before the next round.
11-19-2010, 11:42 AM
#2658
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 710
and there is more. 18 to 20 days off a month seems to be the norm. I'd take that over a downtown hotel and 12 days off a month any day, and it would still be a 100% raise! Don't forget their lack of 160 seat scope relief with AS.
I admit, Im jealous, not a hater.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...-line-mix.html
I admit, Im jealous, not a hater.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...-line-mix.html
11-19-2010, 11:46 AM
#2659
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
11-19-2010, 11:51 AM
#2660
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
This is a contract and company I could be proud of. 145k by early November as an FO, twice what I make all year working DAL. Also, 8.5 hour duty days as opposed to the 14 and 16 hours I was asked to fly this summer. 7 hrs of flying a day vs a two day on reserve I once flew that paid under 7. Keep the plane instead swapping every leg, had four swaps in one day on numerous occasions. 16 days off a month on reserve vs 13 ( At least DAL is close in this regard). Flying Boeing instead of 40 yr old Douglas POS that can't even go direct, or climb with AI on. Substantially better domiciles. It's too bad SWA isn't mass hiring, the bottom at DAL and staffing would get interesting real quick.
I wish our illustrious MEC and contract negotiation team in ATL would be forced to read the SWA contract everyday for two years before the next round.
I wish our illustrious MEC and contract negotiation team in ATL would be forced to read the SWA contract everyday for two years before the next round.
I'm only giving you spit because you called my airplane a POS.
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