Delta Pilots Association
11-18-2010, 09:23 AM
#2641
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Netjets does not work under the RLA. Huge difference!
SWA's pay is a direct piggyback off legacy contracts. They were saved from the cuts that the rest of us took by 5 billion dollars in fuel hedges and a strong balance sheet. Over the course of my career I have made far more then my counterparts at SW and worked far fewer days with a much higher quality of life. The chapter 11 contracts are all going to be up for renegotiation in the next few years. There will be a restoration of the balance and I would bet money over the next 20 years the overall compensation will be better then SW at the legacy carriers.
One think I notice that is never mentioned here is the extra money Delta pilots were paid from the claim and merger stock. Add that into the hourly rates and Delta does not look so bad. I did not include note money because it was compensation for retirement.
SWA's pay is a direct piggyback off legacy contracts. They were saved from the cuts that the rest of us took by 5 billion dollars in fuel hedges and a strong balance sheet. Over the course of my career I have made far more then my counterparts at SW and worked far fewer days with a much higher quality of life. The chapter 11 contracts are all going to be up for renegotiation in the next few years. There will be a restoration of the balance and I would bet money over the next 20 years the overall compensation will be better then SW at the legacy carriers.
One think I notice that is never mentioned here is the extra money Delta pilots were paid from the claim and merger stock. Add that into the hourly rates and Delta does not look so bad. I did not include note money because it was compensation for retirement.
11-18-2010, 10:45 AM
#2642
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Sailing. I get it. It's Skittle skies and rainbows everywhere in your world. What is that...the Good Ship Lollipop that you are sailingfun on?
1. NetJets....They operate in the same airspace performing the same tasks as we do. Except, we are worth less because of the RLA? Yes that changes how negotiations are conducted, but not the resolve or lack of it to stand up for what ones worth. RLA is a cheap skirt to hide behind.
2. SWA Fuel Hedges. Why the h&!! should we be the ATM machine they go to if someone blows the fuel hedges out of their rear end. There is no moral hazard for messing that up if you can just take the loss or perceived loss out of your employees. We should be a fixed cost on that balance sheet.
3. In your day, perhaps you are right about that comparison to your past career and that of a SWA pilot. Not true anymore nor will it be going forward by a long shot. As you edge close to retirement, realize that the low cost carrier pilot flying a 737 is making more that you will with better benefits as a senior DAL pilot. And that SWA pilot .... his retirement is going to make yours look down right pedestrian. Especially if he got in the the great stock option years which I suspect an equivilent hire to you over there has.
4. 20 years? That long to reach parity with a low cost carrier or to restore to what we had? Either way. It boils down to this:
The DAL pilot has to stand for something, or they will fall for anything.
Goes for ALPA to. They are already teetering.
5. This is one of the most myopic and extraordinary statements I have heard in a long time!
"Take the money from the claim and the merger stock and add it to the Delta payrate and it doesn't look so bad."
Wow. That $$ was compenstaion for you agreeing to dump your pension. That $$ was pennies on the dollar to what your pension was worth. That claim would have been significantly smaller if Uncle Doug had not put a bid on for Delta and run up the price of the bonds. That $$ was essentially a small bribe. It's like the sticker or lollipop my kids get when they get a shot at the pediatricians.
To even entertain the idea of adding it to the current rates to conjure up one that doesn't look too bad to you is breath taking in its child like fantasy. If it helps you to feel better about what happened when we voted in the cuts we took in chp. 11, great. Some of us here want to fix what happened and at least stop living under a chp. 11 contract that saves them billions a year. We are worth more than that. If you are content with your "not so bad payrates," then maybe it is time to sit on your hands or shut up and color.
1. NetJets....They operate in the same airspace performing the same tasks as we do. Except, we are worth less because of the RLA? Yes that changes how negotiations are conducted, but not the resolve or lack of it to stand up for what ones worth. RLA is a cheap skirt to hide behind.
2. SWA Fuel Hedges. Why the h&!! should we be the ATM machine they go to if someone blows the fuel hedges out of their rear end. There is no moral hazard for messing that up if you can just take the loss or perceived loss out of your employees. We should be a fixed cost on that balance sheet.
3. In your day, perhaps you are right about that comparison to your past career and that of a SWA pilot. Not true anymore nor will it be going forward by a long shot. As you edge close to retirement, realize that the low cost carrier pilot flying a 737 is making more that you will with better benefits as a senior DAL pilot. And that SWA pilot .... his retirement is going to make yours look down right pedestrian. Especially if he got in the the great stock option years which I suspect an equivilent hire to you over there has.
4. 20 years? That long to reach parity with a low cost carrier or to restore to what we had? Either way. It boils down to this:
The DAL pilot has to stand for something, or they will fall for anything.
Goes for ALPA to. They are already teetering.
5. This is one of the most myopic and extraordinary statements I have heard in a long time!
"Take the money from the claim and the merger stock and add it to the Delta payrate and it doesn't look so bad."
Wow. That $$ was compenstaion for you agreeing to dump your pension. That $$ was pennies on the dollar to what your pension was worth. That claim would have been significantly smaller if Uncle Doug had not put a bid on for Delta and run up the price of the bonds. That $$ was essentially a small bribe. It's like the sticker or lollipop my kids get when they get a shot at the pediatricians.
To even entertain the idea of adding it to the current rates to conjure up one that doesn't look too bad to you is breath taking in its child like fantasy. If it helps you to feel better about what happened when we voted in the cuts we took in chp. 11, great. Some of us here want to fix what happened and at least stop living under a chp. 11 contract that saves them billions a year. We are worth more than that. If you are content with your "not so bad payrates," then maybe it is time to sit on your hands or shut up and color.
Sailing;
Please go back to your 4th floor management job and quit posting on the internet during duty hours.
11-18-2010, 02:35 PM
#2645
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Netjets does not work under the RLA. Huge difference!
SWA's pay is a direct piggyback off legacy contracts. They were saved from the cuts that the rest of us took by 5 billion dollars in fuel hedges and a strong balance sheet. Over the course of my career I have made far more than my counterparts at SW and worked far fewer days with a much higher quality of life. The chapter 11 contracts are all going to be up for renegotiation in the next few years. There will be a restoration of the balance and I would bet money over the next 20 years the overall compensation will be better than SW at the legacy carriers.
One think I notice that is never mentioned here is the extra money Delta pilots were paid from the claim and merger stock. Add that into the hourly rates and Delta does not look so bad. I did not include note money because it was compensation for retirement.
SWA's pay is a direct piggyback off legacy contracts. They were saved from the cuts that the rest of us took by 5 billion dollars in fuel hedges and a strong balance sheet. Over the course of my career I have made far more than my counterparts at SW and worked far fewer days with a much higher quality of life. The chapter 11 contracts are all going to be up for renegotiation in the next few years. There will be a restoration of the balance and I would bet money over the next 20 years the overall compensation will be better than SW at the legacy carriers.
One think I notice that is never mentioned here is the extra money Delta pilots were paid from the claim and merger stock. Add that into the hourly rates and Delta does not look so bad. I did not include note money because it was compensation for retirement.
Carl
11-19-2010, 04:54 AM
#2647
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
There is so much wrong with his reply I will only mention one thing.
Pennies on the dollar for retirement? Most pilots will recover between 70 and 85 percent of what they were due. I would hardly call the pennies. There are 4 different components to the recovery. The MPP money, The note Money, the PBGC money and DC plan contributions. New pilots may actually exceed what the old plan provided because of front loaded contributions. Notice I did not mention the claim or merger stock money. Both of those were to help offset the pay cuts under the 1113 contract. Yes it went into the retirement fund up to the 415 limits but you could have recouped a portion of that in cash by a reduction in 401k contributions to equal the amount deposited. One other thing to keep in mind. The Delta MEC made a decision to allow the plan termination because they felt that the cost to retain the plan would have impacted the junior pilots far more then the senior pilots. They felt that going for the note payment and stock to the PBGC in the termination would better serve the entire seniority list. Keep in mind the plan was frozen under the Malone administration.
Pennies on the dollar for retirement? Most pilots will recover between 70 and 85 percent of what they were due. I would hardly call the pennies. There are 4 different components to the recovery. The MPP money, The note Money, the PBGC money and DC plan contributions. New pilots may actually exceed what the old plan provided because of front loaded contributions. Notice I did not mention the claim or merger stock money. Both of those were to help offset the pay cuts under the 1113 contract. Yes it went into the retirement fund up to the 415 limits but you could have recouped a portion of that in cash by a reduction in 401k contributions to equal the amount deposited. One other thing to keep in mind. The Delta MEC made a decision to allow the plan termination because they felt that the cost to retain the plan would have impacted the junior pilots far more then the senior pilots. They felt that going for the note payment and stock to the PBGC in the termination would better serve the entire seniority list. Keep in mind the plan was frozen under the Malone administration.
11-19-2010, 06:10 AM
#2648
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
This post is much like your last one. You sound like someone who has been traded for cigarettes in a penitentary who then cheerfully proclaims that at least they used protection.
All this aside, are you happy with your your contract? Retirement? Benefits? Are you content with your compensation? Is this the new normal for you now?
I am going to guess that is not the case for most folks here.
11-19-2010, 08:03 AM
#2649
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
Ok, Here is a actual pilots benefit who was 50 at termination.
Frozen plan was 96000 per year
Recovery.
PBGC plus stock recovery. 55,200 per year
Note money 323,000
MMPP money 112,000
DC contributions. 260,000- 10 years at 26,000 average per year. 200k average income
Total cash 435,000. Total tax deferred 212,000
10 years for this pilot to retire at 60 rule of eight money should more then double. Total should be close to between 800k and 1 mil at age 60 plus another 350 to 450,000 from DC contributions. base amount of 260,000 plus investment earnings.
So he had a 96,000 a year benefit. He will get 55,200 from the PBGC and have somewhere between 1.1 and 1.5 million in cash at age 60 with modest earning assumptions.
Again lets be serious? Pennies on the dollar? I don't think so. In fact on the Dalpa forum some of the most anti ALPA pilots have reported they believe they will do better then the frozen benefit.
One last point. I did not include a dime of the claim money or merger stock. Add that in and it gets even better but as mentioned those payments were for contract concessions.
Frozen plan was 96000 per year
Recovery.
PBGC plus stock recovery. 55,200 per year
Note money 323,000
MMPP money 112,000
DC contributions. 260,000- 10 years at 26,000 average per year. 200k average income
Total cash 435,000. Total tax deferred 212,000
10 years for this pilot to retire at 60 rule of eight money should more then double. Total should be close to between 800k and 1 mil at age 60 plus another 350 to 450,000 from DC contributions. base amount of 260,000 plus investment earnings.
So he had a 96,000 a year benefit. He will get 55,200 from the PBGC and have somewhere between 1.1 and 1.5 million in cash at age 60 with modest earning assumptions.
Again lets be serious? Pennies on the dollar? I don't think so. In fact on the Dalpa forum some of the most anti ALPA pilots have reported they believe they will do better then the frozen benefit.
One last point. I did not include a dime of the claim money or merger stock. Add that in and it gets even better but as mentioned those payments were for contract concessions.
11-19-2010, 08:53 AM
#2650
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
Ok, Here is a actual pilots benefit who was 50 at termination.
Frozen plan was 96000 per year
Recovery.
PBGC plus stock recovery. 55,200 per year
Note money 323,000
MMPP money 112,000
DC contributions. 260,000- 10 years at 26,000 average per year. 200k average income
Total cash 435,000. Total tax deferred 212,000
10 years for this pilot to retire at 60 rule of eight money should more then double. Total should be close to between 800k and 1 mil at age 60 plus another 350 to 450,000 from DC contributions. base amount of 260,000 plus investment earnings.
So he had a 96,000 a year benefit. He will get 55,200 from the PBGC and have somewhere between 1.1 and 1.5 million in cash at age 60 with modest earning assumptions.
Again lets be serious? Pennies on the dollar? I don't think so. In fact on the Dalpa forum some of the most anti ALPA pilots have reported they believe they will do better then the frozen benefit.
One last point. I did not include a dime of the claim money or merger stock. Add that in and it gets even better but as mentioned those payments were for contract concessions.
Frozen plan was 96000 per year
Recovery.
PBGC plus stock recovery. 55,200 per year
Note money 323,000
MMPP money 112,000
DC contributions. 260,000- 10 years at 26,000 average per year. 200k average income
Total cash 435,000. Total tax deferred 212,000
10 years for this pilot to retire at 60 rule of eight money should more then double. Total should be close to between 800k and 1 mil at age 60 plus another 350 to 450,000 from DC contributions. base amount of 260,000 plus investment earnings.
So he had a 96,000 a year benefit. He will get 55,200 from the PBGC and have somewhere between 1.1 and 1.5 million in cash at age 60 with modest earning assumptions.
Again lets be serious? Pennies on the dollar? I don't think so. In fact on the Dalpa forum some of the most anti ALPA pilots have reported they believe they will do better then the frozen benefit.
One last point. I did not include a dime of the claim money or merger stock. Add that in and it gets even better but as mentioned those payments were for contract concessions.
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