Delta Pilots Association
11-17-2010, 07:17 AM
#2621
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
I agree with this.
I believe the fear campaign that many are selling will work and DPA will not get voted in before contract time. ALPA will do just what we expect and come up with a sub par contract but will use some fear mongering/this is the best we could do to sell the thing to the pilot group. At that point, ALPA will have shot themselves in the foot and those who were on the fence will not be anymore and ALPA will be voted off campus.
This is my prediction.
I believe the fear campaign that many are selling will work and DPA will not get voted in before contract time. ALPA will do just what we expect and come up with a sub par contract but will use some fear mongering/this is the best we could do to sell the thing to the pilot group. At that point, ALPA will have shot themselves in the foot and those who were on the fence will not be anymore and ALPA will be voted off campus.
This is my prediction.
11-17-2010, 08:55 AM
#2623
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
11-17-2010, 09:27 AM
#2624
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
Even if you are not in favor of changing to DPA, I think sending in the DPA cards is a good idea and will serve as a wake up call for DALPA, and it could also put pressure on DALPA Negotiators as well as DAL Management, to come through with some real restoration, if word gets around that DALPA is not being aggresive enough and the sheeple are getting restless and are -finally- going to do something about it.
11-17-2010, 03:03 PM
#2625
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
Regarding independant unions and contract items, Netjets negotiated a hell of a contract a few years ago. The original contract proposal was voted down and fresh blood was brought in after which the gold standard was quickly negotiated. Soon after, they left the Teamsters and formed their own union due to conflict of interests with the IBT.
If memory serves correctly, some of the highlights of their contract includes zero out of pocket for health care premiums and very little co pays. Every hotel they stay in earns them points enabling high level status and enough annual points to take a couple of free luxury vacations per year (hotel-predominantly Hilton). Vacation is 2 weeks/ year thru year 5 (I think) and 3 weeks after. 4 weeks after 10? As their schedules is mainly 7 on/7 off, a vacation period fits in between 7 days off, a vacation is essentially 3 weeks. 10 years gives 4 three week vacations/ year.
They can live at any of 50 to 100 or so cities in the country and can change every month if they wish. Positive space from these cities is on the house- no commuting. Crew meals are provided for 2 meals a day from which they order from a very extensive menu. They get per diem as well.
These are just some of their "goodies.". I have spoken with many over there and not one thinks they don't have the best QOL contract in pro flying. Yes, their operations is a little different than 121, however, it's sometimes the out of the box thinking which made them successful. Just because it hasn't " been done before" doesn't mean it can't happen.
If memory serves correctly, some of the highlights of their contract includes zero out of pocket for health care premiums and very little co pays. Every hotel they stay in earns them points enabling high level status and enough annual points to take a couple of free luxury vacations per year (hotel-predominantly Hilton). Vacation is 2 weeks/ year thru year 5 (I think) and 3 weeks after. 4 weeks after 10? As their schedules is mainly 7 on/7 off, a vacation period fits in between 7 days off, a vacation is essentially 3 weeks. 10 years gives 4 three week vacations/ year.
They can live at any of 50 to 100 or so cities in the country and can change every month if they wish. Positive space from these cities is on the house- no commuting. Crew meals are provided for 2 meals a day from which they order from a very extensive menu. They get per diem as well.
These are just some of their "goodies.". I have spoken with many over there and not one thinks they don't have the best QOL contract in pro flying. Yes, their operations is a little different than 121, however, it's sometimes the out of the box thinking which made them successful. Just because it hasn't " been done before" doesn't mean it can't happen.
11-17-2010, 04:30 PM
#2626
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Lowest Pay I Could Find
Posts: 1,044
Thought we were only talking about pay and how we are monetarily compensated. The quote you cut was in that context. Of course QOL is important....but I still need the cash to pay for the dubs on my escalade.
11-17-2010, 05:16 PM
#2628
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Regarding independant unions and contract items, Netjets negotiated a hell of a contract a few years ago. The original contract proposal was voted down and fresh blood was brought in after which the gold standard was quickly negotiated. Soon after, they left the Teamsters and formed their own union due to conflict of interests with the IBT.
If memory serves correctly, some of the highlights of their contract includes zero out of pocket for health care premiums and very little co pays. Every hotel they stay in earns them points enabling high level status and enough annual points to take a couple of free luxury vacations per year (hotel-predominantly Hilton). Vacation is 2 weeks/ year thru year 5 (I think) and 3 weeks after. 4 weeks after 10? As their schedules is mainly 7 on/7 off, a vacation period fits in between 7 days off, a vacation is essentially 3 weeks. 10 years gives 4 three week vacations/ year.
They can live at any of 50 to 100 or so cities in the country and can change every month if they wish. Positive space from these cities is on the house- no commuting. Crew meals are provided for 2 meals a day from which they order from a very extensive menu. They get per diem as well.
These are just some of their "goodies.". I have spoken with many over there and not one thinks they don't have the best QOL contract in pro flying. Yes, their operations is a little different than 121, however, it's sometimes the out of the box thinking which made them successful. Just because it hasn't " been done before" doesn't mean it can't happen.
If memory serves correctly, some of the highlights of their contract includes zero out of pocket for health care premiums and very little co pays. Every hotel they stay in earns them points enabling high level status and enough annual points to take a couple of free luxury vacations per year (hotel-predominantly Hilton). Vacation is 2 weeks/ year thru year 5 (I think) and 3 weeks after. 4 weeks after 10? As their schedules is mainly 7 on/7 off, a vacation period fits in between 7 days off, a vacation is essentially 3 weeks. 10 years gives 4 three week vacations/ year.
They can live at any of 50 to 100 or so cities in the country and can change every month if they wish. Positive space from these cities is on the house- no commuting. Crew meals are provided for 2 meals a day from which they order from a very extensive menu. They get per diem as well.
These are just some of their "goodies.". I have spoken with many over there and not one thinks they don't have the best QOL contract in pro flying. Yes, their operations is a little different than 121, however, it's sometimes the out of the box thinking which made them successful. Just because it hasn't " been done before" doesn't mean it can't happen.
Carl
11-17-2010, 06:19 PM
#2629
New Hire
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: B767ER F/O
Posts: 2
Nice photo...
51% of DPA cards returned to the National Mediation Board will generate a decert vote of ALPO... We need work rules and pay restoration.... How many times do your hear guys *****ing about 23k Recovery flying in the crew room. Vacation pay, training pay, Avg. Daily Credit (Remember 5:15 per day) Our NWA bretheren had a 75 hr. guarantee as do most other maj. airlines.. These are just for examples... There are many more.. Yes, pay is not the only thing that MUST BE RESTORED..!!!!!
51% of DPA cards returned to the National Mediation Board will generate a decert vote of ALPO... We need work rules and pay restoration.... How many times do your hear guys *****ing about 23k Recovery flying in the crew room. Vacation pay, training pay, Avg. Daily Credit (Remember 5:15 per day) Our NWA bretheren had a 75 hr. guarantee as do most other maj. airlines.. These are just for examples... There are many more.. Yes, pay is not the only thing that MUST BE RESTORED..!!!!!
11-18-2010, 04:30 AM
#2630
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 631
Here is a sample post from FLIGHTINFO "Reasons why Airtran guys are going to LUV SWA"
Good thread to read, and I am SURE ALPA does not want you to know all the goodies SWA has in their PWA compared to ours. Just a few below:
Ty,
Please take another look friend. You seem to have grossly underestimated our total compensation package. There is NO place on our senioirty list where a AAI pilot will be worse off. As long as the deal goes forward your pilots simply cannot lose!
I'm a 7 year FO who doesn't pick up much and I'm at 145 as of November 5th. I have peers who pull in considerably more.
210k is a 37% increase from 153k. However, the average SWA guy flies 110 trips per month, which is $245k. That is a 60% increase from AAI 12-year captain pay.
AAI FO pay is more in the +80% range. As a 5th year SWA FO, I make 12-year AAI captain pay (according to this website). I'm a commuter and NOT a varsity league bidder.
Don't forget the hugely reduced medical benefits, 1% union dues reduction, AMA overnights, ....
Some of the major ones have been covered; the ones below are not so obvious but total up to some nice beenies in the minds of some.
* For military reservists/guard; positive relationships between flt ops, union and pilots in managing time off; SWA doesn't forget you when you are deployed...make sure you request the SWA/SWAPA Military Handbook for details
* Hotel Committee that is run by pilots/FAs and not corporate bean counters; great hotels managed by our own with an ear toward crew members; grievances are pretty non-existent in regards to hotel issues
* Free internet at nearly all hotels; discounts on food/drink totals 10-50% in hotels
* Multiple tax-free plans to take advantage of, income dependent; Roth & regular 401K, excess plans, profit sharing (5.8% last 5 yrs, 7.19% last 10 yrs), 9.3% company (less than AAI but higher SWA income totals results in more money)
* Highly rated 401K fund selections (see my cut and past from an article rating SWAPA 401K Retirement Funds as being #4 rated by BrightScope)
* Free Morningstar resources available for planning purposes;
* Targeted Retirement Fund mixing of funds; 95% of investments can be managed within a Schwab Personal Choice Retirement Account (PCRA) allowing the pilot to choose any other investment options other than SWAPA chosen funds (manage your own risk); can be stocks, EFTs, funds, etc.
* 2 weeks of vacation 1-5 yrs, 3 weeks 6-10 yrs, 4 weeks 11-18 yrs, 5 weeks 19 yrs or more seniority;
* floating vacations can be sold back at 26.5 TFP and beginning by the time the deal is done, one can fly during your vacation for additional money if you choose to
* No PBS; won't come to pass either with the current efficiency of operations
* avg duty day of 8:35; avg flt time of just over 6 hrs;
* avg 1 "scheduled" aircraft swap in a 3 day; slightly over 1 hr ground time avg
* avg legs per day is 3 with avg flt time per leg of 2 hrs
* avg turn time on normal flights of around 30 minutes
* All of the above thanks to the multiple rigs built into the system to encourage more efficient/more flight time while on trips
* several family insurance options with one that is no cost to the pilot (yes there are reasonable benefits attached to it; I used it last year and good for those without small children
* Great FOs; lots of different types of background
* More FOs on the NC/MA than CAs, bodes well for making sure the junior pilots perspectives are being presented
* Healthy SWAPA reserve fund and sound fiscal oversight in place with a great Budget Director
* Great benefit staff at SWAPA that have helped many pilots who have become disabled or need questions answered quickly
* Ditto for contract admin....avg 10+ yrs of experience in dealing with contract issues by these folks
* Training center is not adversarial; new PC checkride format is positive change promoting better learning; questions on orals come from single study source...no surprises
* Vacation trading is now available on line just like regular trips
* Biding for open time now permits 1.5 bids allowing competitive bidding against those bidding straight time pay (come to SWAPA briefing on 30 Nov to learn more)
* Last phase of open time bidding (1Q11) will allow more automated bids for short notice call outs so less JA; however JA does pay 2.0 now versus 1.5 before
* Jetway trades with pilots legal to fly with just a phone call to scheduling...very nice on those last flights to domicile from your home!!!
* Gary Kelly as CEO!
* Multiple communication methods from the union to the membership (weekly burst emails, twice a month union newspaper, monthly call in conference call to get questions answered from the leadership, good comm during elections)
* Annual budget is presented to membership with general descriptions; voted on/approved by membership
* All BoD and officers are elected by membership; no appointments of execs by BoD; 2 reps per base (8)
* 1% dues
* Wright Amendment goes away mid-'13 making travel to Love (training center) much easier and great new route opportunities (limited to 16 gates but perfect place for -800 combined with 717s to outlying TX cities once change occurs)
* CAs do walkarounds (....just making sure the levity light is on)
* Pilots can have "standing bids" so no longer "I forgot to bid" will result in reserve hell
* More time at home for more pay (but you knew that!
* Never fired a pilot for interpreting valid write ups as "job action" activities
Could go on with more items but many of the obvious ones have been stated already....looking forward to resolving issues and returning value to the customers, shareholders and employees.
Good thread to read, and I am SURE ALPA does not want you to know all the goodies SWA has in their PWA compared to ours. Just a few below:
Ty,
Please take another look friend. You seem to have grossly underestimated our total compensation package. There is NO place on our senioirty list where a AAI pilot will be worse off. As long as the deal goes forward your pilots simply cannot lose!
I'm a 7 year FO who doesn't pick up much and I'm at 145 as of November 5th. I have peers who pull in considerably more.
210k is a 37% increase from 153k. However, the average SWA guy flies 110 trips per month, which is $245k. That is a 60% increase from AAI 12-year captain pay.
AAI FO pay is more in the +80% range. As a 5th year SWA FO, I make 12-year AAI captain pay (according to this website). I'm a commuter and NOT a varsity league bidder.
Don't forget the hugely reduced medical benefits, 1% union dues reduction, AMA overnights, ....
Some of the major ones have been covered; the ones below are not so obvious but total up to some nice beenies in the minds of some.
* For military reservists/guard; positive relationships between flt ops, union and pilots in managing time off; SWA doesn't forget you when you are deployed...make sure you request the SWA/SWAPA Military Handbook for details
* Hotel Committee that is run by pilots/FAs and not corporate bean counters; great hotels managed by our own with an ear toward crew members; grievances are pretty non-existent in regards to hotel issues
* Free internet at nearly all hotels; discounts on food/drink totals 10-50% in hotels
* Multiple tax-free plans to take advantage of, income dependent; Roth & regular 401K, excess plans, profit sharing (5.8% last 5 yrs, 7.19% last 10 yrs), 9.3% company (less than AAI but higher SWA income totals results in more money)
* Highly rated 401K fund selections (see my cut and past from an article rating SWAPA 401K Retirement Funds as being #4 rated by BrightScope)
* Free Morningstar resources available for planning purposes;
* Targeted Retirement Fund mixing of funds; 95% of investments can be managed within a Schwab Personal Choice Retirement Account (PCRA) allowing the pilot to choose any other investment options other than SWAPA chosen funds (manage your own risk); can be stocks, EFTs, funds, etc.
* 2 weeks of vacation 1-5 yrs, 3 weeks 6-10 yrs, 4 weeks 11-18 yrs, 5 weeks 19 yrs or more seniority;
* floating vacations can be sold back at 26.5 TFP and beginning by the time the deal is done, one can fly during your vacation for additional money if you choose to
* No PBS; won't come to pass either with the current efficiency of operations
* avg duty day of 8:35; avg flt time of just over 6 hrs;
* avg 1 "scheduled" aircraft swap in a 3 day; slightly over 1 hr ground time avg
* avg legs per day is 3 with avg flt time per leg of 2 hrs
* avg turn time on normal flights of around 30 minutes
* All of the above thanks to the multiple rigs built into the system to encourage more efficient/more flight time while on trips
* several family insurance options with one that is no cost to the pilot (yes there are reasonable benefits attached to it; I used it last year and good for those without small children
* Great FOs; lots of different types of background
* More FOs on the NC/MA than CAs, bodes well for making sure the junior pilots perspectives are being presented
* Healthy SWAPA reserve fund and sound fiscal oversight in place with a great Budget Director
* Great benefit staff at SWAPA that have helped many pilots who have become disabled or need questions answered quickly
* Ditto for contract admin....avg 10+ yrs of experience in dealing with contract issues by these folks
* Training center is not adversarial; new PC checkride format is positive change promoting better learning; questions on orals come from single study source...no surprises
* Vacation trading is now available on line just like regular trips
* Biding for open time now permits 1.5 bids allowing competitive bidding against those bidding straight time pay (come to SWAPA briefing on 30 Nov to learn more)
* Last phase of open time bidding (1Q11) will allow more automated bids for short notice call outs so less JA; however JA does pay 2.0 now versus 1.5 before
* Jetway trades with pilots legal to fly with just a phone call to scheduling...very nice on those last flights to domicile from your home!!!
* Gary Kelly as CEO!
* Multiple communication methods from the union to the membership (weekly burst emails, twice a month union newspaper, monthly call in conference call to get questions answered from the leadership, good comm during elections)
* Annual budget is presented to membership with general descriptions; voted on/approved by membership
* All BoD and officers are elected by membership; no appointments of execs by BoD; 2 reps per base (8)
* 1% dues
* Wright Amendment goes away mid-'13 making travel to Love (training center) much easier and great new route opportunities (limited to 16 gates but perfect place for -800 combined with 717s to outlying TX cities once change occurs)
* CAs do walkarounds (....just making sure the levity light is on)
* Pilots can have "standing bids" so no longer "I forgot to bid" will result in reserve hell
* More time at home for more pay (but you knew that!
* Never fired a pilot for interpreting valid write ups as "job action" activities
Could go on with more items but many of the obvious ones have been stated already....looking forward to resolving issues and returning value to the customers, shareholders and employees.
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