Delta Pilots Association
11-10-2010, 02:46 PM
#2431
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: I'm in a box
Posts: 19
Exactly, but you weren't supposed to notice that. You were supposed to infer that a DPA would be prohibited from hiring these same services. Or the services used by SWAPA, or IPA, or...
If DPA is voted in, I would use my vote to push for an interview process of professional negotiators such as the ALPA subsidiary, SWAPA's team, IPA's team, and the firms used by successful foreign carriers like British Airways and Lufthansa. I would choose and pay for the firm our union thought was the best.
Carl
If DPA is voted in, I would use my vote to push for an interview process of professional negotiators such as the ALPA subsidiary, SWAPA's team, IPA's team, and the firms used by successful foreign carriers like British Airways and Lufthansa. I would choose and pay for the firm our union thought was the best.
Carl
The same British Airways that legally started Open Skies in order to thwart their own pilot's contract by using outsourced EU labor? The same Open Skies that has brought serious financial damage to BALPA and the BA pilots? Both of those airlines hire, almost exclusively, ab initio pilots with zero hours of flight time. They then put them through a short aviation college and pump them up with 250 hours and then put them on the line. Is that not the opposite of the ranting over the 1500 rule?
11-10-2010, 02:47 PM
#2432
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
They don't need to raise the Base Fare. That, of course would put them on the last page of the all important online fare search websites.
One option is too raise the fees that are collected at then point of purchase much like tax and facility fees.
Knowing that you enjoy pass travel benefits and most likely don't purchase airline tickets, recall the last rental car, hotel room or cruise purchase you made. They all have added on fees for such things as energy consumption, stadiums, facility fees, docking and port charges, & etc.
Why not a modest fee to supplement pilot wages. A fee that is per passenger and less than what they spend per day parking their car at the airport. A fee that is less than what they will spend in line at Starbucks when they transition the terminal. (The hardest part of that is giving it a name that is benign and p.c. I say leave that to the corporate comm. and marketing folks.)
We are living in the 21st century in a connected world that has dramatically reshaped all sorts of business and economics over the past 20 years. We have been deregulated now since the 1970's. Why then do we still cling to the same pay models that were formed when airline travel started?
We need to change and adapt as well.
ALPA could go along way in restoring confidence in themselves if they could solve this problem and offer a solution. I am sure their competion will also be looking at this.
One option is too raise the fees that are collected at then point of purchase much like tax and facility fees.
Knowing that you enjoy pass travel benefits and most likely don't purchase airline tickets, recall the last rental car, hotel room or cruise purchase you made. They all have added on fees for such things as energy consumption, stadiums, facility fees, docking and port charges, & etc.
Why not a modest fee to supplement pilot wages. A fee that is per passenger and less than what they spend per day parking their car at the airport. A fee that is less than what they will spend in line at Starbucks when they transition the terminal. (The hardest part of that is giving it a name that is benign and p.c. I say leave that to the corporate comm. and marketing folks.)
We are living in the 21st century in a connected world that has dramatically reshaped all sorts of business and economics over the past 20 years. We have been deregulated now since the 1970's. Why then do we still cling to the same pay models that were formed when airline travel started?
We need to change and adapt as well.
ALPA could go along way in restoring confidence in themselves if they could solve this problem and offer a solution. I am sure their competion will also be looking at this.
Now, have you looked around lately and noticed some of our fellow employees? I would venture to guess that if you did a study of health care and pharmaceutical costs per pilot employee vs. other employees, one would see a difference. How significant I don't know.
If given that all of the above is true, then couldn't we:
1. Cover ourselves as a seperately insured group that would conceivably enjoy lower premiums and costs.
2. Administer and facilitate this through our union (whichever it might be).
3. Continue this plan in retirement until the gov't kicks in.
4. Get a credit from the Co. for now having our health care costs removed from their ledger.
Discuss.
11-10-2010, 04:26 PM
#2433
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Ok. So while we are discussing this, lets address this one as well. Health care. We as pilots see a doctor once or twice a year. Must of us make good lifestyle choices in order to maintain good health. Not many smokers around anymore unlike my days as a side ways sitting switch monkey. Additionaly, lots of us partake in cardiovascular workouts, eat health and watch our weight.
Now, have you looked around lately and noticed some of our fellow employees? I would venture to guess that if you did a study of health care and pharmaceutical costs per pilot employee vs. other employees, one would see a difference. How significant I don't know.
If given that all of the above is true, then couldn't we:
1. Cover ourselves as a seperately insured group that would conceivably enjoy lower premiums and costs.
2. Administer and facilitate this through our union (whichever it might be).
3. Continue this plan in retirement until the gov't kicks in.
4. Get a credit from the Co. for now having our health care costs removed from their ledger.
Discuss.
Now, have you looked around lately and noticed some of our fellow employees? I would venture to guess that if you did a study of health care and pharmaceutical costs per pilot employee vs. other employees, one would see a difference. How significant I don't know.
If given that all of the above is true, then couldn't we:
1. Cover ourselves as a seperately insured group that would conceivably enjoy lower premiums and costs.
2. Administer and facilitate this through our union (whichever it might be).
3. Continue this plan in retirement until the gov't kicks in.
4. Get a credit from the Co. for now having our health care costs removed from their ledger.
Discuss.
Makes perfect sense - a group plan of relatively healthy /health conscious people who get physicals twice a year how expensive could it be relative to the baseline population?.
11-10-2010, 04:29 PM
#2434
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
A large airline is a complex business with a lot of moving parts. How do they make up for oil going up $10, $20, $50 a barrel? How do they make up for starting up airlines with green sperm painted all over the aircraft and then deciding to scrap the whole thing? What about Breezeway Boarding trip rugs? How much did those cost? How much does it cost to rebrand/logo the entire airline? How much does it cost to buy regional airlines for billions of dollars and then sell them for a fraction of what was paid? How much do weather systems impacting our hubs cost each year? How do they make up for a particularly bad luck year with weather impacting multiple hubs multiple times?
The point is that there are frequently massive swings in cost to an airline. Ticket pricing is an extremely complex thing that also has wild swings. Are you telling me there's not an opportunity anywhere in there to reorder and/or allocate things so that pilots could be compensated in line with the way we were compensated for decades? Is $5 bucks a ticket... whether it's recouped through increased ticket prices, reductions in costs in other areas, or a combination of many different things... really that significant? What kinds of synergies and efficiencies does a company gain by treating its employees like a valuable asset instead of strictly a cost item? (Hint: Many successful business experts understand this concept.)
My experience has been that, when a company identifies something that is a priority to them, they find a way to make it happen. I guess as long as DALPA continues to downplay the importance of it and make it sound like we're just fine, management will continue to keep it off their list of priorities.
The point is that there are frequently massive swings in cost to an airline. Ticket pricing is an extremely complex thing that also has wild swings. Are you telling me there's not an opportunity anywhere in there to reorder and/or allocate things so that pilots could be compensated in line with the way we were compensated for decades? Is $5 bucks a ticket... whether it's recouped through increased ticket prices, reductions in costs in other areas, or a combination of many different things... really that significant? What kinds of synergies and efficiencies does a company gain by treating its employees like a valuable asset instead of strictly a cost item? (Hint: Many successful business experts understand this concept.)
My experience has been that, when a company identifies something that is a priority to them, they find a way to make it happen. I guess as long as DALPA continues to downplay the importance of it and make it sound like we're just fine, management will continue to keep it off their list of priorities.
Nothing to see here folks move along. Hey, hey look over there!
11-10-2010, 05:11 PM
#2435
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
They don't need to raise the Base Fare. That, of course would put them on the last page of the all important online fare search websites.
One option is too raise the fees that are collected at then point of purchase much like tax and facility fees.
Knowing that you enjoy pass travel benefits and most likely don't purchase airline tickets, recall the last rental car, hotel room or cruise purchase you made. They all have added on fees for such things as energy consumption, stadiums, facility fees, docking and port charges, & etc.
One option is too raise the fees that are collected at then point of purchase much like tax and facility fees.
Knowing that you enjoy pass travel benefits and most likely don't purchase airline tickets, recall the last rental car, hotel room or cruise purchase you made. They all have added on fees for such things as energy consumption, stadiums, facility fees, docking and port charges, & etc.
Why not a modest fee to supplement pilot wages. A fee that is per passenger and less than what they spend per day parking their car at the airport. A fee that is less than what they will spend in line at Starbucks when they transition the terminal. (The hardest part of that is giving it a name that is benign and p.c. I say leave that to the corporate comm. and marketing folks.)
We are living in the 21st century in a connected world that has dramatically reshaped all sorts of business and economics over the past 20 years. We have been deregulated now since the 1970's. Why then do we still cling to the same pay models that were formed when airline travel started?
We need to change and adapt as well.
ALPA could go along way in restoring confidence in themselves if they could solve this problem and offer a solution. I am sure their competition will also be looking at this.
We need to change and adapt as well.
ALPA could go along way in restoring confidence in themselves if they could solve this problem and offer a solution. I am sure their competition will also be looking at this.
11-10-2010, 05:44 PM
#2436
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
What really irks me are the rumors that "partner benefits" are or have been for sale. For a given price one can fraudulently obtain health care and other benefits.
If true, imagine what that does to the healthcare costs for our company. Those costs are eventually passed down and become a burden on all the employees.
11-10-2010, 05:58 PM
#2437
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
What really irks me are the rumors that "partner benefits" are or have been for sale. For a given price one can fraudulently obtain health care and other benefits.
If true, imagine what that does to the healthcare costs for our company. Those costs are eventually passed down and become a burden on all the employees.
If true, imagine what that does to the healthcare costs for our company. Those costs are eventually passed down and become a burden on all the employees.
I agree completely.
Heck I want my in-laws to have pass benefits like Step Parents do. It is plain crazy.
11-10-2010, 06:08 PM
#2439
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Great idea, and one that our President EB has stated is his desire. I believe that what you are seeing with the decoupling of services is step one, and step two and three will be surcharges for variations in fuel, landing fees, etc, but right now our sector of the market does not support more than the limited fuel surcharges that they levied a few years ago.
Everyone is looking at way to add revenue to the bottom line. I think that if the full service airlines could add the fees you suggested they would. What I do find ironic is that pilots are begging for more fees when they were complaining about how cheap it was to charge for bags a few years ago.
But if they're going to go the fee route and they won't pay us more without bringing in the additional revenue to cover it, then maybe it's time to add a pilot surcharge. I just find it kind of interesting (and sad) that a passenger's checked bag is worth way more than the pilots flying him to his destination.
11-10-2010, 06:35 PM
#2440
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Do you actually think that the Marketing guys leave money on the table when they set fares for routes? Do you really believe that if they could increase fares by $8 they don't because of some altruistic motivation?
$8 bucks higher could put you on the second or third page of expedia.com. Kinda like taxes, an increase in fares may cause a reduction in revenue. Without the competition following the increase, the pioneer would be left hanging.
Here's hoping that Ucal gets a new contract with significant progress before we start negotiating.
$8 bucks higher could put you on the second or third page of expedia.com. Kinda like taxes, an increase in fares may cause a reduction in revenue. Without the competition following the increase, the pioneer would be left hanging.
Here's hoping that Ucal gets a new contract with significant progress before we start negotiating.
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