tsquare

That is the beauty and the lie of a representative democracy. Representative democracy and mob rule are one in the same.. it's just a smaller, more powerful mob that has the say so. But the real unfortunate thing is that you can never get rid of the incumbent. (or in this case, the "elite") Bring forth a motion to use the average of ALL the highest captains pay for big shots and let's see if that even gets in the same building as the compensation committee. Bah! Those of us in the proletariat have no real say in who is the leader in Herndon. We can give input to the reps, but since most of the real dealings go on at functions we are not allowed to attend, I'm sure our real concerns are place squarely on the back burner (or more likely.. in the trash) since those in the know.. know what's best. It's sickening. That is why (on a national government level) we had Ted Kennedy and KKKByrd for so long.. and why pelosi is still around. But I digress. We need a Lech Walesa to lead ALPA National.. not another John Prater.

CVG767A

I haven't read every page of this discussion, so maybe it's already been said, but we shouldn't be forming a new union while we're preparing to negotiate what may be one of the most important contracts during our careers.

We have a lot of pay and benefits to recover from bankruptcy. We're in a position to do that in 2012. I'd rather go into negotiations as a unified group with an experienced team at ALPA.

A new union now will dissipate much of the unity we now have. Also, a significant portion of a new union's energy will, by necessity, be devoted to building the structures and procedures we now have in place with ALPA. This is energy that won't be directed at improving our contract.

While I'm willing to explore the possibility of an independent union at some point in time, now is not that time.

Carl Spackler

Interesting. When we have something in our contract that we don't like, you say that it was us locals that negotiated and voted for it. When we have something good, it was negotiated through our National and International Affiliations. Which is it ACL?

That's your story and your sticking to it. Why do you continue to believe this in the absence of any evidence? We have been trying to reform ALPA national for decades! National has successfully resisited reform at every turn. What's your idea for this latest reform you say we need? How about a resolution for changes in the bylaws!

While you are certainly entitled to your "gut feeling", it's not something others should weigh very highly. Especially given your previous cautions about "voting on emotion."

Carl

tsquare

There is never a right time. The next contract will ALWAYS be the most important contract of our careers. I am not saying that we should vote in a new union, but to always live in fear of those consequences has gotten us 1990 payrates in 2010 and 90 hour months... I am really hoping that the guys in Herndon are at Defcon 1 over this.. but I doubt it. they are way too arrogant for that and secure in the knowledge that it will never happen anyway. But I am all for sending a very loud shot across the bow

Flamer

Just got another email from ALPA telling me how good they are. Between that and Prater's re-election email my computer has been puked on several times now.

SWAPA and the others get the best of both worlds little bit of national clout over 121, while having leadership solely devoted to their interests. I say we do the same. ALPA can replace the lost monies by bringing on 47 more RJ companies. Between ALPA and dog turd I take dog turd. I think it will be better.

Carl Spackler

The problem ALPA has is that its ineffectiveness is showing that it has little power for which a vacuum might be created if it goes away. The in-house union movement is growing and successful to their members. There is no need to fill a power vacuum when there is little power.

That's another talking point for the entrenched ALPA types. Think about it. This is ALWAYS a reason to never get an in-house union. Just after contract signing: "Can't do it now, we need all our current resources to defend the new contract." Mid Contract: "Can't do it now, because Section 6 is right around the corner." End of Contract: "Can't do it now because we're negotiating the next contract."

The time is never convenient and should never be a criteria for firing the ineffective.

Carl

Carl Spackler

I'll look forward to the debate. Now that we know who the top 3 in the organization are, I'll wait to see the start of the smear campaign against everyone involved. I hope I'm wrong...we'll see.

Carl

gloopy

That "may" be the "cheapest route" but one that will never and should never happen. The DF/KK philosophy of "comitt to it and then worry about how it may happen later" will be a bigger barrier to progress than the status quo. You know better than that.

CVG767A

I'm looking at the DPA website, but not seeing any names associated with the organization. Does anyone know who's behind this?

If it's pilots who have been active with the union, or at least have been vocal in their criticism of it, I'll assume that they have a legitimate goal.

If they're coming from obscurity to try to start a new union, I've got to wonder why they want to sow the seeds of disunity when we're gearing up for contract negotiations. Call me paranoid, but management would love to see a schism among the pilot ranks during the next couple of years.

I'm not raising this issue to start a smear campaign, but I need to understand their motivation before I can support them.

Carl Spackler

Absolutely! The organization is only a few weeks old but they better come out with the entire plan right now or they have no credibility. Better yet, we should just stick with ALPA national.

Carl