Delta Pilots Association
11-02-2010, 07:21 PM
#2232
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
The best labor lawyers money can buy for;
-FAA action
-ADOA (DOT Drug Test) action; chain of custody. (search case history and see who the lawyers are that constantly fight these issues, ALPA)
-Section six
-other labor related issues.
Whether or not you want to admit it, being in a professional association with these "regional" carriers means that we resolve the differences internally and not at the table or court house with our corporation. We deal with them as an association. They will also not go after your flying while you are the big man on campus. Leave and the mice will play, and play for your cheese.
The best labor professional negotiators that in effect can only be used in conjunction with ALPA. Yes, professional negotiators.
Bar none the best medium for pilots wrt to:
Security
Safety
Accident Investigation
Legislative pressure
Medical
International Issues, which are to big to list and effectively cover them.
Human factors research.
Legal
Strategic Planning
That is off the top of my head and I am sure there are some I am missing.
You may argue that money can buy you all of this, and, yes I agree you can buy an outsourced service for much of this, but we all know what quality outsourcing can provide. When a person or in this case a pilot is working for the betterment of not just someone else for a paycheck but for their own QOL and chosen career field, the work is going to be of greater quality than that of someone that collects a fee for a service. Simply put insourced labor provides better quality.
The idea of buying these services is so anti-trade unionism. We are preaching taking back scope on one hand and then outsourcing on the other. To me that sounds like talking out both sides of our mouth.
Also many have issues with the pay at National but how can professionals that are part of a union, with any shred of creditability go tell another unionized workforce that they can get their services though outsourcing. You are effectively making managements argument for them. If you want to change their pay, tell em why, but blowing up an organization to get the labor cheaper seems to have been done a lot over the last decade.(See your angst) In many instances these will be the same ppl an independent will hire to perform the work. How do you think these people are going to feel towards you? What will their work quality be towards those that hurt their families?
So you say you will not hire them, I say good luck finding lawyers, negotiators etc that are currently of ALPA's employ, have the breadth of experience to adequately defend a group like DPA. That type of experience will cost a lot more than the 200K salaries we are now paying them.
But the most important thing you get is Unity. Inclusiveness is what makes an organization like ALPA stronger. The NKS strike proved exactly what this unity can do. CAPA is a loose organization of independent pilot associations that gets together on some issues, and not on some. ALPA National takes 44,000 pilots and their representatives and forms a majority position on every issue. Some ague it is too weak, but I argue to the contrary. Your reps are the ones with direct input with this, and they are voted in by you. Do not like the fact that it is in effect a representational democracy, put pilots in there that will change the by laws.
The ALPA position is the majority position of 44K pilots, not a bunch of RJ pilots that secretly control the voice. Heck I know many of the ALPA positions that do nothing for the career advancement of the RJ crowd.
-FAA action
-ADOA (DOT Drug Test) action; chain of custody. (search case history and see who the lawyers are that constantly fight these issues, ALPA)
-Section six
-other labor related issues.
Whether or not you want to admit it, being in a professional association with these "regional" carriers means that we resolve the differences internally and not at the table or court house with our corporation. We deal with them as an association. They will also not go after your flying while you are the big man on campus. Leave and the mice will play, and play for your cheese.
The best labor professional negotiators that in effect can only be used in conjunction with ALPA. Yes, professional negotiators.
Bar none the best medium for pilots wrt to:
Security
Safety
Accident Investigation
Legislative pressure
Medical
International Issues, which are to big to list and effectively cover them.
Human factors research.
Legal
Strategic Planning
That is off the top of my head and I am sure there are some I am missing.
You may argue that money can buy you all of this, and, yes I agree you can buy an outsourced service for much of this, but we all know what quality outsourcing can provide. When a person or in this case a pilot is working for the betterment of not just someone else for a paycheck but for their own QOL and chosen career field, the work is going to be of greater quality than that of someone that collects a fee for a service. Simply put insourced labor provides better quality.
The idea of buying these services is so anti-trade unionism. We are preaching taking back scope on one hand and then outsourcing on the other. To me that sounds like talking out both sides of our mouth.
Also many have issues with the pay at National but how can professionals that are part of a union, with any shred of creditability go tell another unionized workforce that they can get their services though outsourcing. You are effectively making managements argument for them. If you want to change their pay, tell em why, but blowing up an organization to get the labor cheaper seems to have been done a lot over the last decade.(See your angst) In many instances these will be the same ppl an independent will hire to perform the work. How do you think these people are going to feel towards you? What will their work quality be towards those that hurt their families?
So you say you will not hire them, I say good luck finding lawyers, negotiators etc that are currently of ALPA's employ, have the breadth of experience to adequately defend a group like DPA. That type of experience will cost a lot more than the 200K salaries we are now paying them.
But the most important thing you get is Unity. Inclusiveness is what makes an organization like ALPA stronger. The NKS strike proved exactly what this unity can do. CAPA is a loose organization of independent pilot associations that gets together on some issues, and not on some. ALPA National takes 44,000 pilots and their representatives and forms a majority position on every issue. Some ague it is too weak, but I argue to the contrary. Your reps are the ones with direct input with this, and they are voted in by you. Do not like the fact that it is in effect a representational democracy, put pilots in there that will change the by laws.
The ALPA position is the majority position of 44K pilots, not a bunch of RJ pilots that secretly control the voice. Heck I know many of the ALPA positions that do nothing for the career advancement of the RJ crowd.
I will be perfectly honest when I say that the salaries at national are the biggest thing that sticks in my craw. You say that I should essentially be ashamed when I talk of firing them and their poor families and all that other malarky in order to get your point across. It's just business... just like any other consumer, I do not feel as if I am getting my monies' worth, and I will go elsewhere. It is stupid not to. Why does the president of ALPA national's salary not include an average of ALL the carriers under his administration. NO housing allowance.. NO car allowance... NO perks. He is there to serve. Period. Oh, and I almost forgot... NO pension... Just like us.
11-02-2010, 07:22 PM
#2233
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
They are not going through security 15-20 x's a month. They are sitting in the MEC offices when they are there. Also, last I checked, management was driven to the gate in cars in ATL. Can't imagine they aren't getting the rub down or the radiation either on the frequency or level that the line pilot is.
ACL, how do we force this issue and change ALPA from within and "fix what we have?"
11-02-2010, 07:28 PM
#2234
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Unfortunately, I think this is true. I'd even go as far as to say that they haven't heard (much) about it in Herndon. They are way to arrogant to worry about it or even care for that matter because they know that it is little more than a nuisance for a little while. After it dies, they will go back to business as usual. Thanks for the dues/high pay/and retirement. Where's my cigar?
11-02-2010, 07:30 PM
#2235
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
11-02-2010, 07:50 PM
#2236
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
11-02-2010, 07:56 PM
#2237
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
T;
Guys at National that have nothing to do with DAL. Other airline colleagues that I knew long before I was here. Just for some clarity for you.
Also, I am just a line guy. I mean that. I do a little volunteer work, but other than that, my opinions are that of my own. I may have my ear to the ground or have the ability to pick up the targets behind the background noise, but to think I am an insider, is quite funny. That statement will probably have ppl shooting beer though their nose's on the eight floor at DALPA and the 4th floor at DAL.
WRT to national. Call it a business decision, but the facts remain that DPA or ALPA we are a union. It make it real hard to champion workers rights when you are willing to go after them yourself. You and I both know that we are not talking about the office of the president either. We are talking about support staff.
As for the presidential salary and stipends. Seems to be a level of accountability that was not there before. Do not like that they get paid, even though they are on a Leave of absence from their airline, then change it.
As was described at a LEC meeting.
Housing allowance is for people that do not move there. If they do it is not paid. It will now be direct billed to ALPA. It pays for a 3BR 2BA condo and is limited by some amount for the DC area. I do not know what it is.
The car allowance is for a 30K US made car as well as the gas, and maintenance associated with it.
Per diem has been cut to a 24K flat rate and Concur reimbursement.
Pay is based on the average of the top five airlines, no the top three. That is a pay cut.
This is for the office of the president only.
Everyone else gets FPL from their airline on what they can hold. For guys from small carriers there is a min number they have to hit.
Like I said, these are the changes from this BOD. Seems to be the direction the LEC reps wanted to take, which is bringing accountability back to the office of the ALPA president. It may not be a full fix, but it is better than a jump in the wrong direction.
As for the pension, I do not know the details of it, but it is to make up for the loss of retirement contributions while at national.
Guys at National that have nothing to do with DAL. Other airline colleagues that I knew long before I was here. Just for some clarity for you.
Also, I am just a line guy. I mean that. I do a little volunteer work, but other than that, my opinions are that of my own. I may have my ear to the ground or have the ability to pick up the targets behind the background noise, but to think I am an insider, is quite funny. That statement will probably have ppl shooting beer though their nose's on the eight floor at DALPA and the 4th floor at DAL.
WRT to national. Call it a business decision, but the facts remain that DPA or ALPA we are a union. It make it real hard to champion workers rights when you are willing to go after them yourself. You and I both know that we are not talking about the office of the president either. We are talking about support staff.
As for the presidential salary and stipends. Seems to be a level of accountability that was not there before. Do not like that they get paid, even though they are on a Leave of absence from their airline, then change it.
As was described at a LEC meeting.
Housing allowance is for people that do not move there. If they do it is not paid. It will now be direct billed to ALPA. It pays for a 3BR 2BA condo and is limited by some amount for the DC area. I do not know what it is.
The car allowance is for a 30K US made car as well as the gas, and maintenance associated with it.
Per diem has been cut to a 24K flat rate and Concur reimbursement.
Pay is based on the average of the top five airlines, no the top three. That is a pay cut.
This is for the office of the president only.
Everyone else gets FPL from their airline on what they can hold. For guys from small carriers there is a min number they have to hit.
Like I said, these are the changes from this BOD. Seems to be the direction the LEC reps wanted to take, which is bringing accountability back to the office of the ALPA president. It may not be a full fix, but it is better than a jump in the wrong direction.
As for the pension, I do not know the details of it, but it is to make up for the loss of retirement contributions while at national.
11-02-2010, 07:57 PM
#2238
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
I'm not insinuating otherwise, I'm plainly saying so. In my 32 years as an ALPA member with 4 airlines, I served on a few committees, ran for office twice and lost twice. When I call my reps, the calls are never returned. When I email my reps, I've gotten one response in the last 5 years. I would call that one pretty small fish.
Carl
Carl
I believe tsquare was talking to/about ACL in that post, not you.
11-02-2010, 07:57 PM
#2239
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I'm not insinuating otherwise, I'm plainly saying so. In my 32 years as an ALPA member with 4 airlines, I served on a few committees, ran for office twice and lost twice. When I call my reps, the calls are never returned. When I email my reps, I've gotten one response in the last 5 years. I would call that one pretty small fish.
Carl
Carl
My post was aimed at ACL
11-02-2010, 08:01 PM
#2240
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
OK. Alpa doesn't want to pay. Again, what are they doing wrt making someone else pony up? What are they doing to advocate on our behalf.
They are not going through security 15-20 x's a month. They are sitting in the MEC offices when they are there. Also, last I checked, management was driven to the gate in cars in ATL. Can't imagine they aren't getting the rub down or the radiation either on the frequency or level that the line pilot is.
ACL, how do we force this issue and change ALPA from within and "fix what we have?"
They are not going through security 15-20 x's a month. They are sitting in the MEC offices when they are there. Also, last I checked, management was driven to the gate in cars in ATL. Can't imagine they aren't getting the rub down or the radiation either on the frequency or level that the line pilot is.
ACL, how do we force this issue and change ALPA from within and "fix what we have?"
First and foremost get guys in there that agree with your agenda. To do that you have to get better voter participation in the LEC elections. That is step one. 37% in 44 last time was horrible.
As you get your guys in work with reps from other airlines to push for by-law and policy changes that stream line the process. It takes work. No one will discredit that. Carl says it is not possible but if the angst is as real as he states; which I do think it is, this should be easy. With UCAL and DAL pilots pushing an agenda at National, you would have a real chance and making major changes.
WRT, Crewpass, every person I know within ALPA wants crewpass. My interpretation is that it is not a negotiation item, and it is not something that we should have to pay for. Your reps would know more.
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