Delta Pilots Association
11-01-2010, 02:08 PM
#2151
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
Ladies and Gentlemen:
As PCL, with his vast experience (MOD EDIT) at ALPA and AirTran pilot has yet again brought up this subject, an Bucking Bar also commented, I feel it is incumbent on correcting their misstatements.
First...your pilot group...like any pilot group in ALPA...does NOT control your bargaining rights. Proof exists at the NMB where ALPA National is registered as your legal bargaining agent.
ALPA does allow, for the sake of expediency, each group to conduct their own bargaining. However, at the end of the day, ALPA National is the required signatory. Need further proof? Tell ALPA that you intend to go out and hire outside professional negotiators for your next negotiation. The reason ALPA is involved is to ensure that Association goals are not derailed in your negotiations.
IBT? Same thing. The Airline Division holds the bargaining rights. There is however a BIG difference. Because of the structure and control, each Local...and the individual groups contained therein...control their rights and their own bargaining.
The "boogeyman" Business Agent they keep referring to? It is a person selected by the members of the carrier to represent their interests and run the business affairs of the Local. Meaning among other things, finances.
Why? Because it's cheaper than paying someone to be on Flight Pay Loss. And they are fully versed in RLA law and the carriers contract. Do they sit in on negotiations? Yes. Do they decide on their own how a contract is agreed to? Absolutely not. The Negotiating Committee does and if there is a conflict, they consult with the elected leadership.
How's that work? Local 1224 has over 3.8 MILLION of it's members dues money in the bank. Their money. IBT can't touch it. And that was just from the 800 pilots of ABX.
Can they hire outside professional negotiators? Absolutely. Do they? Yes.
Are they "truck drivers" as is often thrown about? Well...if you consider a retired 747-400 Captain to be a "truck driver"...yes. If you consider a former MEC Chairman, 747-400 Captain and professional negotiator to be something more...well, you can figure that out. And the attorney? RLA experienced and airline negotiations experience as well.
Economic analysis, modeling and forecasting? All they have to do is request it from the International.
How's it working? That will become fairly clear in the coming days when the Atlas/Polar group announce contract percentage increases bigger than anything ALPA has ever negotiated.
The difference is that the IBT Locals have full autonomy. How full? They get to keep their dues money. Of the 1.56% they collect, they only send .22% to the International. Additional assessments? They can only be agreed to by the Local after a membership vote...the International can't direct it. And that money stays at the Local.
One issue sure to be brought up is trusteeship. Yes, under the new leadership of the International, a Local was found to be committing malfeasance and not representing it's members. It was placed in trusteeship, the issues were resolved and the Local was dissolved, with the units moved. They take a very hard line on that. Wouldn't you want that?
So yes there IS a difference.
Perhaps the biggest difference is in believing that all airline labor groups must find a way to understand each others problems and work together. As Abraham Lincoln said, "a house divided cannot stand." When we all learn to stand together and support each other, our strength multiplies.
You as a group have legitimate concarns and issues. Debate them. Seek facts. Don't buy the party line from any party unless you can verify it.
Then decide.
As PCL, with his vast experience (MOD EDIT) at ALPA and AirTran pilot has yet again brought up this subject, an Bucking Bar also commented, I feel it is incumbent on correcting their misstatements.
First...your pilot group...like any pilot group in ALPA...does NOT control your bargaining rights. Proof exists at the NMB where ALPA National is registered as your legal bargaining agent.
ALPA does allow, for the sake of expediency, each group to conduct their own bargaining. However, at the end of the day, ALPA National is the required signatory. Need further proof? Tell ALPA that you intend to go out and hire outside professional negotiators for your next negotiation. The reason ALPA is involved is to ensure that Association goals are not derailed in your negotiations.
IBT? Same thing. The Airline Division holds the bargaining rights. There is however a BIG difference. Because of the structure and control, each Local...and the individual groups contained therein...control their rights and their own bargaining.
The "boogeyman" Business Agent they keep referring to? It is a person selected by the members of the carrier to represent their interests and run the business affairs of the Local. Meaning among other things, finances.
Why? Because it's cheaper than paying someone to be on Flight Pay Loss. And they are fully versed in RLA law and the carriers contract. Do they sit in on negotiations? Yes. Do they decide on their own how a contract is agreed to? Absolutely not. The Negotiating Committee does and if there is a conflict, they consult with the elected leadership.
How's that work? Local 1224 has over 3.8 MILLION of it's members dues money in the bank. Their money. IBT can't touch it. And that was just from the 800 pilots of ABX.
Can they hire outside professional negotiators? Absolutely. Do they? Yes.
Are they "truck drivers" as is often thrown about? Well...if you consider a retired 747-400 Captain to be a "truck driver"...yes. If you consider a former MEC Chairman, 747-400 Captain and professional negotiator to be something more...well, you can figure that out. And the attorney? RLA experienced and airline negotiations experience as well.
Economic analysis, modeling and forecasting? All they have to do is request it from the International.
How's it working? That will become fairly clear in the coming days when the Atlas/Polar group announce contract percentage increases bigger than anything ALPA has ever negotiated.
The difference is that the IBT Locals have full autonomy. How full? They get to keep their dues money. Of the 1.56% they collect, they only send .22% to the International. Additional assessments? They can only be agreed to by the Local after a membership vote...the International can't direct it. And that money stays at the Local.
One issue sure to be brought up is trusteeship. Yes, under the new leadership of the International, a Local was found to be committing malfeasance and not representing it's members. It was placed in trusteeship, the issues were resolved and the Local was dissolved, with the units moved. They take a very hard line on that. Wouldn't you want that?
So yes there IS a difference.
Perhaps the biggest difference is in believing that all airline labor groups must find a way to understand each others problems and work together. As Abraham Lincoln said, "a house divided cannot stand." When we all learn to stand together and support each other, our strength multiplies.
You as a group have legitimate concarns and issues. Debate them. Seek facts. Don't buy the party line from any party unless you can verify it.
Then decide.
on "the rest of the story." I hope you don't get anymore nasty PMs.
11-01-2010, 02:30 PM
#2153
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,602
DPA simply sees ALPA as poorly serving the pilot group. I profoundly agree. Just like any poor performing employee or vendor in my business, I want them fired. It's strictly business. DPA is another vendor with a message of better representation. I'm listening.
Carl
Carl
11-01-2010, 02:36 PM
#2154
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl, I would suggest you read "Flying the Line" or better yet, study the rise of unionism in American in the 20th century. You can't buy representation, you have to be a part of it. When your new union is certified, you won't be able to just pull out your checkbook and buy your way to a better contract, or better (regs) for rest requirements. It doesn't work that way.
Carl
11-01-2010, 03:13 PM
#2155
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,602
11-01-2010, 04:49 PM
#2156
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS !
11-01-2010, 05:02 PM
#2157
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Heyas,
The absolute hilarity in all of this is: Has anyone heard ANYTHING from the DPA?
Anything at all?
An email?
A phone call?
A snail mail letter?
Something in their mailbox at work?
A personal contact?
All this frothing at the mouth over a group, as far as I can tell, that has done nothing, proposed nothing, as published no commentary from their leadership or organizers, and has had no public activity other than a simple website with rather abstract objectives.
So what, may I ask, is all the bother about?
And yet with this absolute minimal of information, we find people in hysterics, with the battle lines drawn.
#2100 posts, and not a single entry by any DPA organizer forwarding a plan or agenda. For the status quo folks, it must be like fighting a ghost.
Nu
The absolute hilarity in all of this is: Has anyone heard ANYTHING from the DPA?
Anything at all?
An email?
A phone call?
A snail mail letter?
Something in their mailbox at work?
A personal contact?
All this frothing at the mouth over a group, as far as I can tell, that has done nothing, proposed nothing, as published no commentary from their leadership or organizers, and has had no public activity other than a simple website with rather abstract objectives.
So what, may I ask, is all the bother about?
And yet with this absolute minimal of information, we find people in hysterics, with the battle lines drawn.
#2100 posts, and not a single entry by any DPA organizer forwarding a plan or agenda. For the status quo folks, it must be like fighting a ghost.
Nu
IMHO, This is a giant power struggle started by guys that lost their fiefdoms and are tapping into a lot of anger. Carl and a few others have done a good job manipulating that anger towards an easy target, ALPA. It has turned quite nasty and the groundskeeper is becoming increasingly unhinged.
Nu's question still remains unanswered. Where's the Beef? What the He(( is going on out there? Who are these guys? Where's my Hossenfeffer?
( A smiley face to anyone who can name those four popular cultural references.)
I think that the reason we haven't heard from the actual DPA crowd is that who they are would reveal motivations and stop their desertification campaign in its tracks. Just one man's baseless opinion..;
11-01-2010, 06:51 PM
#2158
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
11-01-2010, 07:49 PM
#2160
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Which part is a lie, that it has become nasty or that you have become unhinged? While you may agree with neither, they can hardly be classified as a lie since both are opinion. But that is typical carl, projection and deflection.
I did find such posts but there is already enough poo flying that we didn't need another monkey in the mix, so I let it be.
I did find such posts but there is already enough poo flying that we didn't need another monkey in the mix, so I let it be.
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