NWA320pilot

No matter how bad the marriage?

Carl Spackler

The more accurate analogy is this:

The football PLAYERS realize that their coach now represents the opposing team as well as their team. When plays keep coming in from the sidelines that seem to strongly disadvantage their own team and advantage the other team, some of the PLAYERS are going to rightly ask: "Hey coach...whose side are you on!" If the coach says: "Hey guys...can't we all just get along? There's plenty for everybody if you'll just show some unity!. The PLAYERS at some point are going to say: "We better find us a new coach!"

Carl

ATCsaidDoWhat

Ladies and Gentlemen:

As PCL, with his vast experience (MOD EDIT) at ALPA and AirTran pilot has yet again brought up this subject, an Bucking Bar also commented, I feel it is incumbent on correcting their misstatements.

First...your pilot group...like any pilot group in ALPA...does NOT control your bargaining rights. Proof exists at the NMB where ALPA National is registered as your legal bargaining agent.

ALPA does allow, for the sake of expediency, each group to conduct their own bargaining. However, at the end of the day, ALPA National is the required signatory. Need further proof? Tell ALPA that you intend to go out and hire outside professional negotiators for your next negotiation. The reason ALPA is involved is to ensure that Association goals are not derailed in your negotiations.

IBT? Same thing. The Airline Division holds the bargaining rights. There is however a BIG difference. Because of the structure and control, each Local...and the individual groups contained therein...control their rights and their own bargaining.

The "boogeyman" Business Agent they keep referring to? It is a person selected by the members of the carrier to represent their interests and run the business affairs of the Local. Meaning among other things, finances.

Why? Because it's cheaper than paying someone to be on Flight Pay Loss. And they are fully versed in RLA law and the carriers contract. Do they sit in on negotiations? Yes. Do they decide on their own how a contract is agreed to? Absolutely not. The Negotiating Committee does and if there is a conflict, they consult with the elected leadership.

How's that work? Local 1224 has over 3.8 MILLION of it's members dues money in the bank. Their money. IBT can't touch it. And that was just from the 800 pilots of ABX.

Can they hire outside professional negotiators? Absolutely. Do they? Yes.
Are they "truck drivers" as is often thrown about? Well...if you consider a retired 747-400 Captain to be a "truck driver"...yes. If you consider a former MEC Chairman, 747-400 Captain and professional negotiator to be something more...well, you can figure that out. And the attorney? RLA experienced and airline negotiations experience as well.

Economic analysis, modeling and forecasting? All they have to do is request it from the International.

How's it working? That will become fairly clear in the coming days when the Atlas/Polar group announce contract percentage increases bigger than anything ALPA has ever negotiated.

The difference is that the IBT Locals have full autonomy. How full? They get to keep their dues money. Of the 1.56% they collect, they only send .22% to the International. Additional assessments? They can only be agreed to by the Local after a membership vote...the International can't direct it. And that money stays at the Local.

One issue sure to be brought up is trusteeship. Yes, under the new leadership of the International, a Local was found to be committing malfeasance and not representing it's members. It was placed in trusteeship, the issues were resolved and the Local was dissolved, with the units moved. They take a very hard line on that. Wouldn't you want that?

So yes there IS a difference.

Perhaps the biggest difference is in believing that all airline labor groups must find a way to understand each others problems and work together. As Abraham Lincoln said, "a house divided cannot stand." When we all learn to stand together and support each other, our strength multiplies.

You as a group have legitimate concarns and issues. Debate them. Seek facts. Don't buy the party line from any party unless you can verify it.

Then decide.

Carl Spackler

Thank you ATC. Lots of great stuff there.

Carl

Bucking Bar

Deleted, duplicate.

Bucking Bar

How was what I wrote any different in substance? Where is the "correction?"

NWA320pilot

Well I am certainly glad I don't think like you...... My first marriage was a bitter disaster staying in it was not the right answer. Jump to my current marriage, life is good and I can't imagine being with anyone else.

I guess you are right ALPA can be like a marriage, my first one.

Carl Spackler

The necessary correction that I see is that one of your previous posts stated that there is no conflict because only Delta pilots negotiate and sign off on their contracts. What ATC has done is expand in greater detail, and that has shown me that there is more to the story than what you posted...a lot more. And this is one of my points. ALPA national has far too much influence on what should be local matters. ALPA national sets up a committee structure that makes it look like ALPA national is nothing more than a "big picture" overseer - when in reality they structure things through finance and other means to have a huge influence on how negotiations and members' votes go.

It allows ALPA to have their ultimate circular argument. They use their huge influence to steer negotiations and votes to further THEIR goals, even if it is against the goals of a local. Then when the local rank and file complain, they say: "Hey look at the structure...you've got nobody to blame but yourself." Many of us have had enough of the middleman. We want to control all aspects of our union directly and locally. Delta pilots only, for the betterment of Delta pilots.

Carl

Bucking Bar

I never wrote that "only Delta pilots negotiate and sign off on their contracts." What I wrote is that ALPA's President signs off on Delta's contract and that through our exclusive bargaining agent we resolve conflict.

ALPA National has never ever refused to sign a Delta contract. As the 900lb gorilla we get what we want. Conflicts have always been resolved in our favor before anyone sits down at a bargaining table with management.

So, if DPA seeks to blame ALPA National for a local problem, it is misdirected.

Carl Spackler

You're right. My apologies for remembering wrongly what you had written.

The problem is that our bargaining agent does so much more than what you allude to. Through their power of the purse strings and owner of all lawyers and staff members, ALPA national directs what they think is in the best interest of ALPA national. Do the local unions have the power to go up against ALPA national? Absolutely not. Do the the local rank and file pilots have the power to vote down TA's before they ever get to be contracts? Aboslutely...no question about that.

Now here is where the conflict of interest comes in: Due to ALPA's representation of us and the airlines to which we've sold our flying, a problem arises when local guys try to negotiate back the flying that they've sold. That action will hurt the airline that we've sold our flying to. That airline is also represented by ALPA. The evidence is clear to me that ALPA does not want to hurt the regionals, and uses their considerable influence (as listed in the paragraph above) to skew negotiations, skew the message to rank and file pilots, and pre-ordaine the results of both the negotiations and the vote. If ALPA weren't conflicted by needing to represent both sides of this tug of war, I believe ALPA wouldn't use its influence in a negotiations process that should only be local.

I believe that is patently false.

DPA simply sees ALPA as poorly serving the pilot group. I profoundly agree. Just like any poor performing employee or vendor in my business, I want them fired. It's strictly business. DPA is another vendor with a message of better representation. I'm listening.

Carl