DAL 88 Driver

You're right. You and I are never going to agree on this.

Having a compelling and appropriate mission statement is one of the most basic, fundamental things that a successful business does. Is every business that does this successful? Of course not. It's not a guarantee. It's just what successful businesses and organizations do.

I don't know why APA failed to achieve results. Maybe the timing just wasn't right. Maybe they were too confrontational. There are a host of things that can derail the success of a business or organization. But none of that changes the need to have an appropriate objective and to communicate that objective so that everyone in the organization is pulling in the same direction. The fact that DALPA has not done this and has allowed the tone to be set that things are going pretty well for us is a major problem IMO. We could argue about it all day. But, like you said, repeating it isn't going to change your mind or mine.

Good luck rewriting how success is achieved in businesses and organizations. Maybe when we have achieved restoration (or whatever it is you think we should achieve) your way, then you can write a text book with the new model for success!

Carl Spackler

ALPA will have input...as long as they agree to increase pilot hours from 8 to 10 hours per day. CAPA has come out firmly against this. ALPA is playing politics as usual. Being seen as cooperative is what's needed for ALPA leaders to move to the next level...a government bureaucrat instead of a union bureaucrat.

I think the odds are very strong that ALPA will be the domestic only union fighting for relevance. Many UAL/CAL pilots are just as finished with ALPA as many of us are. If we decertify ALPA as I believe we will, UAL/CAL will probably be next. ALPA will have the regionals...which is their current focus anyway. CAPA or some other coalition of the major airlines is the future as I see it.

Carl

acl65pilot

Carl;
It better be a grand slam because if one or the other do not de-certify, as you suggest, the outcome, and effect will not be good for any of us.

PCL_128

Well said. If the people here who are supporting the DPA were in the hot seat and actually had to make the tough decisions, they would also pick option 2, but since they're nothing more than keyboard commandos, they can fire shots from the sidelines and act like tough guys. The reality of actually having to lead in order to improve the lot of the piloting profession is quite different than sitting behind a keyboard and writing angry forum messages about ALPA.

That's exactly right. There will be a net increase in pilot jobs under ALPA's proposed FT/DT rules, not a reduction.

"National" doesn't control elections. Local pilots do.

I openly opposed Captain Prater's reelection, so I certainly don't think he's the right guy for the job. But if you think that he's the kind of guy who would go work for big business, then you really don't know John Prater. Despite the fact that he's ill-suited to be ALPA President, there's no doubt in my mind that he's a true trade unionist. He'll either go back to the line, or he'll find some way to continue working to benefit labor.

Cohen, Weiss & Simon is not a law firm of professional negotiators. They are litigators, scope experts, DFR experts, etc. ALPA does, however, employ dozens of professional negotiators. The Director of Representation has been negotiating pilot contracts since 1979. That's all he does for a living. Good luck finding someone with more experience.

Call your congressman and ask him if he knows who CAPA is. After he says "cap what?," ask him if he knows who ALPA is. He'll probably talk about how he just spoke with ALPA recently on one issue or another. CAPA is a nobody in DC. They always will be. The way they conduct business ties their hands too much to ever be effective. That won't change, regardless of whether the DAL pilots were to join.

They aren't "assimilated," Carl, they become educated on what's actually going on, what the law is, what the case law is, what the bargaining history is, etc. After they get all of the facts (because they were too lazy to do so before running for office), they finally realize that their union was right all along, and they start supporting it rather than throwing grenades from the sidelines. I know, because I was one of those guys years ago before I ran for office the first time. You learn quickly.

Sorry, but that's false. The APA signed a services agreement with ALPA to pay ALPA for services to assist them in their negotiations.

Carl Spackler

APA is in the midst of a very important fight, and it's not what will be in their contract. APA's fight (and all of our fight) is against the NMB and their refusal to declare an impasse. Ultimately, this egregious abuse of power by this bureaucracy will have to be decided by a judge and the laws changed. APA is fighting this fight to prove that self help is still available to a union. If they're wrong, there is no such thing as trade unionism.

Nobody is saying that yelling arbitrary numbers is a strategy. A strategy is to come out right now with what this union is expecting at a minimum and preparing the pilots for a tough fight via continuous and consistent communication. DALPA is not doing that. That is no strategy for success. What we have instead, is the ALPA apologists here working feverishly to lower the expectations of Delta pilots.

That is true.

Your opinion only. However, ALPA has proven thus far to take unity and leverage...and still surrender to management. Scope anyone?

Carl

Carl Spackler

I know. If only you and ALPA would realize that they've lost the confidence of Delta pilots and just reqlinquish control to DPA. Wouldn't that be great? Now we're all united!

Carl

Carl Spackler

Typical deflection and straw man arguments. The point is that Hawaiin showed the example of turning down the first TA in bankruptcy. The result was a second TA that was far better than the rejected one. DALPA did not reject their first TA, neither did NWALPA. Hawaiin showed the example. That's the point.

Continue on with your next deflection, straw man argument, and/or threats via PM.

Carl

slowplay

It's always fun to watch when the facts get in the way of your intemperate rants, Carl!

Oh, better check your integrity again, slick. I've published my portion of the PM. Where's the threat?

acl65pilot

Funny.

Almost every guy outside of this board that complains about this or that mentions a person, not an organization. Most guys I talk to are pragmatic enough to realize that ALPA is not the one to blame. They freely admit that it was the pilots of DAL and NWA that voted for each and every concession.

PCL;
Great post. I do beleive that ALPA needs to reeducate their pilots on exactly what they do and whom we employ. There is a ton of great things ALPA does. Most guys have either forgotten or chose not to see that.

As for the forum radical that see the light, well, the individuals get enlightened on all of the angles of each issue when they get more involved and the solution becomes less clear. That is just reality.

Carl;
Who do you think that APA elected a new head that is more pragmatic?

dckozak

There are lots of reasons Delta pilots should care what happens to ALPA, whether the pilots of Delta stay or leave. First off, the loss of Delta would be a blow to ALPA, no doubt. The influence to direct policy and provide guidance would be sorely missed. That said, the pilots of Delta, represented by another union will not, have any where near the influence ALPA does now, with or without DAL. The near term issues of a newly formed union will be so daunting, it will be could up in administrative BS along with recruitment for a considerable time, that it will be a long time before you will be able to attempt to influence any policy on Capital Hill.

Based on Carls view of the world, Which is very black and white on many issues (I'm assuming here that Carl is going to jump in a volunteer to lead Legislative committee work ) , the DPA is going to need forceful expressive people to offset the lobbying that ALPA, ATA, CAA and other interested parties have when trying to influence federal legislation or FAA rule making.

While Carl is leading the effort on behalf of the pilots at Delta airlines, ALPA will be in the trenches flighting a rear guard action by the industry to undermine pilots interests.
Many people see things as either total victory to total capitulation. With views like that, you either flight or die, strike or cave, win or lose. In that world there is no negotiation, just demands.
Carl is hard over on 8 block hours. We all get it. As best as I can tell, any thing more under any condition is UNSAT. no, ifs, ands, or buts about it. I'm not sure where he stands on reduced FDP, whether it is a factor in fatigue, it doesn't matter, 8 is 8 and for those of us flying on the back side of the clock....well , tuff sh!t.
The FAA proposes an increase to 10 hours during 6 hours in the morning till 1300. Other proposals at other times would be 9 hours and some evening hours would be 8 hours. I agree it needs your input to keep it from happening. ALPA's recommendation is an hour less in all periods. The industry, using European regs as a guideline wants no flight time limits, just what ever will fit within the FDP footprint.

I think if ALPA "wins" restrictions to the union flight time proposal it will be a major accomplishment in the face of heavy industry lobbying. Capt Carl will consider it a cave, because we will have a 9 hour flight limit during normal morning hours. It will be further proof of ALPA ineptitude. Go look for yourself, read the comments posted on the Regulations.gov website, see what were up against.