Delta Pilots Association
10-29-2010, 10:54 AM
#1841
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Lowest Pay I Could Find
Posts: 1,044
Heyas,
The pushback from the 1,500 hour issue is that in a couple of years, there will be an actual shortage of bodies in the cockpit.
What we are being told is that what will follow a legitimate shortage will be either the MPL (bad), or opening the doors to foriegn pilots to fly our airplanes (gee, I thought that they had a hard time finding people overseas, too)
I hate to say this, but that is coming anyway. The MPL and cabotage is TOO lucrative a savings for the airlines. If we can't hold fast on the 1,500 hour limit, there is NO way we're going to stop cabotage and the MPL from happening, when there is real money on the line.
You can appease the dragon now, but it will always be back for more.
Nu
The pushback from the 1,500 hour issue is that in a couple of years, there will be an actual shortage of bodies in the cockpit.
What we are being told is that what will follow a legitimate shortage will be either the MPL (bad), or opening the doors to foriegn pilots to fly our airplanes (gee, I thought that they had a hard time finding people overseas, too)
I hate to say this, but that is coming anyway. The MPL and cabotage is TOO lucrative a savings for the airlines. If we can't hold fast on the 1,500 hour limit, there is NO way we're going to stop cabotage and the MPL from happening, when there is real money on the line.
You can appease the dragon now, but it will always be back for more.
Nu
I'm not falling for this "lower the minimums now because there will be a shortage later".
10-29-2010, 11:29 AM
#1842
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
Dawgs...While I don't work for CAPA, I do work closely with some of their folks and others, so I may be able to provide some insight.
In my opinion, the fundamental difference between the groups is that one is a group of individual pilot groups that work together to support common goals and one is a holder of collective bargaining rights for numerous carriers. The autonomy of the individual groups within CAPA allows them to independently run their own business (CBA's) while getting support from others within the group. The group works to support each other on the common industry matters (pilot experience, FT/DT, pension and bankruptcy reform, etc.,).
In terms of support in DC, there is tremendous value when you can reach out as CAPA has done, to form coalitions with other airline labor groups on common concerns, as was done recently with the formation of the "American Aviation Labor Alliance."
The AALC is comprised of CAPA and it's member airlines, IBT, TWU and others and is designed to work together on issues of common interest...like bankruptcy and pension reform.
Whether we as pilots wish to believe it or not, "no man is an island" applies to our profession. We must work with other labor groups to find areas of mutual belief and support. We may think we can stop an airline, but in today's de-regulated environment; we likely can't do it alone. It's the support from and for others that will strengthen our hand.
ALPA was invited to join the AALC. They refused, citing the fact that other unions were involved and they would have nothing to do with CAPA unless the member carriers agreed to join ALPA. I'll leave that one to you to digest.
So CAPA is independent. With carriers like American, SWA and others who seem to be doing OK without ALPA telling them how to run things. Are they perfect? No. Is anyone? The difference is that they have the support of the 1.6 million members of the IBT (whose Airline Division alone has grown by 35% in the past two years to over 65,000), and other labor unions. And are seen on the Hill as a strong and unified voice for all...not just some.
In the end, it may not be your cup of joe. For others to dismiss it simply because they are not members of ALPA is foolish.
As foolish as dismissing those of you who voice legitimate concerns over your own issues and are simply told to go to cooperate and graduate because anything else is suicidal.
In my opinion, the fundamental difference between the groups is that one is a group of individual pilot groups that work together to support common goals and one is a holder of collective bargaining rights for numerous carriers. The autonomy of the individual groups within CAPA allows them to independently run their own business (CBA's) while getting support from others within the group. The group works to support each other on the common industry matters (pilot experience, FT/DT, pension and bankruptcy reform, etc.,).
In terms of support in DC, there is tremendous value when you can reach out as CAPA has done, to form coalitions with other airline labor groups on common concerns, as was done recently with the formation of the "American Aviation Labor Alliance."
The AALC is comprised of CAPA and it's member airlines, IBT, TWU and others and is designed to work together on issues of common interest...like bankruptcy and pension reform.
Whether we as pilots wish to believe it or not, "no man is an island" applies to our profession. We must work with other labor groups to find areas of mutual belief and support. We may think we can stop an airline, but in today's de-regulated environment; we likely can't do it alone. It's the support from and for others that will strengthen our hand.
ALPA was invited to join the AALC. They refused, citing the fact that other unions were involved and they would have nothing to do with CAPA unless the member carriers agreed to join ALPA. I'll leave that one to you to digest.
So CAPA is independent. With carriers like American, SWA and others who seem to be doing OK without ALPA telling them how to run things. Are they perfect? No. Is anyone? The difference is that they have the support of the 1.6 million members of the IBT (whose Airline Division alone has grown by 35% in the past two years to over 65,000), and other labor unions. And are seen on the Hill as a strong and unified voice for all...not just some.
In the end, it may not be your cup of joe. For others to dismiss it simply because they are not members of ALPA is foolish.
As foolish as dismissing those of you who voice legitimate concerns over your own issues and are simply told to go to cooperate and graduate because anything else is suicidal.
10-29-2010, 11:40 AM
#1843
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
First.. what is DCPC?
I guess that just perfectly illustrates the conflict of interest that exists within ALPA national. How can LM represent the regional guys with the same fervor that he represents the legacys? If I were that regional guy, I wouldn't be scared.. I would be livid.
I'm going to point out one more conflict of interest that I think you need to think about. A few months ago, DAL was denied Anti Trust Immunity with Virgin Blue, because in the words of the DOJ (I believe).... sic.. "There would not be enough benefit to the consumer if this were granted." Now one need look no further than Chicago to realize that the ONLY other US carrier to serve the LAX-SYD route is UAL. IMO, Prater should have been jumping up and down on LaHoodies' desk with this saying that it is flat out wrong.. protectionism... cronyism.. whatever... but wait.. he couldn't do that because he (Prater) represents BOTH DAL and UAL... Is that not a definition of conflict of interest? To do nothing, he did something... He made a choice about which carrier was more important to him. That is one (of many) reasons that I think national is an ineffective unfixable pig.
I guess that just perfectly illustrates the conflict of interest that exists within ALPA national. How can LM represent the regional guys with the same fervor that he represents the legacys? If I were that regional guy, I wouldn't be scared.. I would be livid.
I'm going to point out one more conflict of interest that I think you need to think about. A few months ago, DAL was denied Anti Trust Immunity with Virgin Blue, because in the words of the DOJ (I believe).... sic.. "There would not be enough benefit to the consumer if this were granted." Now one need look no further than Chicago to realize that the ONLY other US carrier to serve the LAX-SYD route is UAL. IMO, Prater should have been jumping up and down on LaHoodies' desk with this saying that it is flat out wrong.. protectionism... cronyism.. whatever... but wait.. he couldn't do that because he (Prater) represents BOTH DAL and UAL... Is that not a definition of conflict of interest? To do nothing, he did something... He made a choice about which carrier was more important to him. That is one (of many) reasons that I think national is an ineffective unfixable pig.
And the DAL guy is now going to be in charge of ALPA. I do not think that LM will endorse a given White House incumbent if they do not start playing fair. He will also make a stink about it. Fact is that labor can really mess with the next presidential election cycle. The point is that La Hood and his boss better be careful about picking favorites, because it will come back and bite em.
10-29-2010, 11:43 AM
#1844
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
How did CAPA handle the age 65 rule, the one where SWAPA wanted a change and APA didn't?
Isn't USAPA threatening to pull out of CAPA over the last election's politics?
As to your Teamsters, have you guys found Hoffa yet?
How many other properties have you raided (against your organizations agreement)? What's it like working under a staff run, member supported organization, especially one that's in receivership?
I'm sure all your Atlas pilots knew what a "business agent" was when they signed on! ;-)Seems like ACL isn't the only one leaving out the whole story...!
10-29-2010, 11:49 AM
#1845
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
CAPA doesn't support it. ALPA shouldn't either. ALPA started out by saying they didn't, now they changed their minds.
Supporting the idea, but having "issues" with the details is more political, weasel words. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. ALPA does neither.
Carl
Supporting the idea, but having "issues" with the details is more political, weasel words. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. ALPA does neither.
Carl
"In testimony before the U.S. House Aviation Subcommittee later today, ALPA will present its initial analysis of the FAA’s Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on airline pilots’ flight- and duty-time limits and minimum rest requirements.
As you know, our union has long pursued modern, science-based flight- and duty-time and minimum rest regulations that would apply to all airline pilots, regardless of the size of the equipment they fly or whether they carry cargo or passengers.
In 2007, Capt. Prater created a Blue Ribbon Panel on Pilot Fatigue to review the science and recommend an action plan for the union. In 2009, ALPA adopted a landmark pilot fatigue policy. Last year we co-chaired and were represented by seven pilots on the FAA’s Flight and Duty Time Limitations and Rest Requirements Aviation Rulemaking Committee.
ALPA is very pleased that the FAA has released a regulatory proposal. Guided by ALPA’s policy, our union’s Flight Time/Duty Time Committee is carefully reviewing the NPRM. The committee includes ALPA pilot safety experts from the range of Part 121 flying, including regional, domestic, international, and cargo operations.
While ALPA looks forward to submitting our full comments to the FAA, the FT/DT Committee offers some initial observations about the proposal. We are very encouraged by many aspects.
- First, the proposal appears to apply scientific principles and recognizes human physiological limitations with increased minimum rest periods and more reasonable duty days, and recognizes the effects of circadian rhythms on fatigue.
- The proposal applies to all FAR Part 121 flying and would eliminate “carve-outs” for supplemental operations.
- It incorporates FAR Part 91 “tag on” or ferry flights within flight- and duty-time limitations.
- The proposed rule requires fatigue education and training on a recurring basis at all airlines and provides for implementation of a fatigue risk management program.
- The NPRM mandates that all flight crewmembers report rested and fit for duty and establishes that fitness for duty is a joint responsibility of the flight crewmember and airline.
- The proposal requires airlines to accurately record and set scheduled flight and duty periods based on actual operations and to make adjustments if unreliable scheduling is used.
- It makes the decision to extend the duty period a joint responsibility of the pilot in command and the airline, and further limits the number of times the duty period may be extended for a flight crew.
- The proposal also requires positioning of crewmembers or deadheading to be counted as duty.
- And, finally, the NPRM specifically recognizes reserve duty.
- The NPRM does not ensure that the length and quality of rest after a long-range flight across multiple time zones is sufficient before the next flight and duty period.
- We have concerns that the application of the augmented flight and duty period table will not adequately address the circadian disruption that the flight crewmember may experience during certain types of long-range flying.
- The proposal does not assess the effects of increasing the amount of block time in a duty period up to 10 hours.
The law now requires the FAA to publish new pilot flight- and duty-time rules no later than July 31, 2011. ALPA’s FT/DT Committee will submit our association’s comments to the FAA and share them with the membership. We will also track the agency’s progress toward meeting the 2011 deadline for a final rule.
10-29-2010, 11:57 AM
#1847
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
"We are very pleased to announce that our talks with the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) have borne fruit in many areas where we have pledged mutual cooperation, including ALPA’s generous offer to provide APA access to ALPA’s extensive capabilities in the area of economic and financial analysis and other related services. It is safe to assert that the relationship between ALPA and APA is the best it’s been in decades. Working together, we can advance the profession far more than acting as competitors." APA ltr
10-29-2010, 12:02 PM
#1850
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
Good point. They appear to be ineffective and apparently ignored by the players who are actually involved. In other words not relevant.
I also wonder why they are not capable of supporting their own member airlines in negotiations. Why would the APA have to approach ALPA to tap into ALPA's significant capabilities and services for their section 6 negotiations instead of CAPA's?
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