Delta Pilots Association
10-29-2010, 08:32 AM
#1821
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
1. F U D. Misinfo. Fear - Uncertainty - Doubt. Spread misinformation.
When that does not work it is racheted up to the next level.
2. Admit nothing. Deny, and deny everything. Make counter accusations.
And finally, if the above two do not work, the fall back is:
3. "We (I) have information you don't. I have seen (fill in the blank) and I'd like to tell you more but I can not because we (I) have signed a confidentiality agreement."
10-29-2010, 08:33 AM
#1822
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,325
Ok, my apologies. I know we all have our opinions and sides we stand on but I like that we are having this discussion. I also like to know when I"m reading someones opinion if they are the type who regularly omits important pieces of info to frame their argument. Through this I am able to get a more informed opinion and it helps me settle out what course of action I want to take. Obviously, I have my leanings but they are not set in stone.
I already feel DPA is doing its job. It's getting us to discuss the merits of ALPA, or lack thereof.
I already feel DPA is doing its job. It's getting us to discuss the merits of ALPA, or lack thereof.
10-29-2010, 08:39 AM
#1823
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
It is part of a formula, commonly seen in lounge shows prior to any memrat.
1. F U D. Misinfo. Fear - Uncertainty - Doubt. Spread misinformation.
When that does not work it is racheted up to the next level.
2. Admit nothing. Deny, and deny everything. Make counter accusations.
And finally, if the above two do not work, the fall back is:
"We (I) have information you don't. I have seen (fill in the blank) and I'd like to tell you more but I can not because we (I) have signed a confidentiality agreement."
1. F U D. Misinfo. Fear - Uncertainty - Doubt. Spread misinformation.
When that does not work it is racheted up to the next level.
2. Admit nothing. Deny, and deny everything. Make counter accusations.
And finally, if the above two do not work, the fall back is:
"We (I) have information you don't. I have seen (fill in the blank) and I'd like to tell you more but I can not because we (I) have signed a confidentiality agreement."
One of the best things about this discussion is that management knows that pilots are really engaged. If ALPA is decertified, management is going to know that a paradigm shift has occured with their pilots. In my opinion, that will be a good thing because I want a paradigm shift in this next contract.
Carl
10-29-2010, 08:42 AM
#1824
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
It was a quick post while holding an infant and I knew before I could get back to it, I forgot about it and then was called on it, but that is OK.
If you recall, I am a reform guy. Look back at my posts in the 200-8000 range. I am still that guy, I just do not see the merits of doing it outside of ALPA. I think all of the candidates for MEC Chair identified what DPA is. It is a symptom of ALPA not doing their job to the level they need to. I agree with that. Guys are frustrated, and imp taking what some see is a correct/easier path. It may prove fruitful short term, but long term it will not.
It was funny I had a buddy of mine tell me that RJ guys are scared of Lee. That one shocked me. He told me they are not going to upset him. I took that as an interesting observation.
The UCAL pilots are set on getting their outsourcing under control. If they do it makes that much easier for us.
If you recall, I am a reform guy. Look back at my posts in the 200-8000 range. I am still that guy, I just do not see the merits of doing it outside of ALPA. I think all of the candidates for MEC Chair identified what DPA is. It is a symptom of ALPA not doing their job to the level they need to. I agree with that. Guys are frustrated, and imp taking what some see is a correct/easier path. It may prove fruitful short term, but long term it will not.
It was funny I had a buddy of mine tell me that RJ guys are scared of Lee. That one shocked me. He told me they are not going to upset him. I took that as an interesting observation.
The UCAL pilots are set on getting their outsourcing under control. If they do it makes that much easier for us.
10-29-2010, 08:43 AM
#1825
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
Please chime in and you don't need permission from ACL. They consistently say CAPA is an outsider without any seat at the table. This is one of their arguments to support continuing with ALPA. I would personally like to have some CAPA representatives here to refute misstatements and argue why CAPA would work for Delta. CAPA has consistently been on the correct side of the argument, imo. This 1500 hr. rule is just the latest to show the stark difference between CAPA and ALPA . I'm sure CAPA would have much more political clout if DAL and UAL went independent and became members of CAPA. The question I continue to have with the ALPA supporters who tout this "seat at the table" is.....What good is having this "seat" when the butts sitting in it don't represent the views of the average Delta Pilot?
In my opinion, the fundamental difference between the groups is that one is a group of individual pilot groups that work together to support common goals and one is a holder of collective bargaining rights for numerous carriers. The autonomy of the individual groups within CAPA allows them to independently run their own business (CBA's) while getting support from others within the group. The group works to support each other on the common industry matters (pilot experience, FT/DT, pension and bankruptcy reform, etc.,).
In terms of support in DC, there is tremendous value when you can reach out as CAPA has done, to form coalitions with other airline labor groups on common concerns, as was done recently with the formation of the "American Aviation Labor Alliance."
The AALC is comprised of CAPA and it's member airlines, IBT, TWU and others and is designed to work together on issues of common interest...like bankruptcy and pension reform.
Whether we as pilots wish to believe it or not, "no man is an island" applies to our profession. We must work with other labor groups to find areas of mutual belief and support. We may think we can stop an airline, but in today's de-regulated environment; we likely can't do it alone. It's the support from and for others that will strengthen our hand.
ALPA was invited to join the AALC. They refused, citing the fact that other unions were involved and they would have nothing to do with CAPA unless the member carriers agreed to join ALPA. I'll leave that one to you to digest.
So CAPA is independent. With carriers like American, SWA and others who seem to be doing OK without ALPA telling them how to run things. Are they perfect? No. Is anyone? The difference is that they have the support of the 1.6 million members of the IBT (whose Airline Division alone has grown by 35% in the past two years to over 65,000), and other labor unions. And are seen on the Hill as a strong and unified voice for all...not just some.
In the end, it may not be your cup of joe. For others to dismiss it simply because they are not members of ALPA is foolish.
As foolish as dismissing those of you who voice legitimate concerns over your own issues and are simply told to go to cooperate and graduate because anything else is suicidal.
10-29-2010, 08:49 AM
#1826
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Dawgs...While I don't work for CAPA, I do work closely with some of their folks and others, so I may be able to provide some insight.
In my opinion, the fundamental difference between the groups is that one is a group of individual pilot groups that work together to support common goals and one is a holder of collective bargaining rights for numerous carriers. The autonomy of the individual groups within CAPA allows them to independently run their own business (CBA's) while getting support from others within the group. The group works to support each other on the common industry matters (pilot experience, FT/DT, pension and bankruptcy reform, etc.,).
In terms of support in DC, there is tremendous value when you can reach out as CAPA has done, to form coalitions with other airline labor groups on common concerns, as was done recently with the formation of the "American Aviation Labor Alliance."
The AALC is comprised of CAPA and it's member airlines, IBT, TWU and others and is designed to work together on issues of common interest...like bankruptcy and pension reform.
Whether we as pilots wish to believe it or not, "no man is an island" applies to our profession. We must work with other labor groups to find areas of mutual belief and support. We may think we can stop an airline, but in today's de-regulated environment; we likely can't do it alone. It's the support from and for others that will strengthen our hand.
ALPA was invited to join the AALC. They refused, citing the fact that other unions were involved and they would have nothing to do with CAPA unless the member carriers agreed to join ALPA. I'll leave that one to you to digest.
So CAPA is independent. With carriers like American, SWA and others who seem to be doing OK without ALPA telling them how to run things. Are they perfect? No. Is anyone? The difference is that they have the support of the 1.6 million members of the IBT (whose Airline Division alone has grown by 35% in the past two years to over 65,000), and other labor unions. And are seen on the Hill as a strong and unified voice for all...not just some.
In the end, it may not be your cup of joe. For others to dismiss it simply because they are not members of ALPA is foolish.
As foolish as dismissing those of you who voice legitimate concerns over your own issues and are simply told to go to cooperate and graduate because anything else is suicidal.
In my opinion, the fundamental difference between the groups is that one is a group of individual pilot groups that work together to support common goals and one is a holder of collective bargaining rights for numerous carriers. The autonomy of the individual groups within CAPA allows them to independently run their own business (CBA's) while getting support from others within the group. The group works to support each other on the common industry matters (pilot experience, FT/DT, pension and bankruptcy reform, etc.,).
In terms of support in DC, there is tremendous value when you can reach out as CAPA has done, to form coalitions with other airline labor groups on common concerns, as was done recently with the formation of the "American Aviation Labor Alliance."
The AALC is comprised of CAPA and it's member airlines, IBT, TWU and others and is designed to work together on issues of common interest...like bankruptcy and pension reform.
Whether we as pilots wish to believe it or not, "no man is an island" applies to our profession. We must work with other labor groups to find areas of mutual belief and support. We may think we can stop an airline, but in today's de-regulated environment; we likely can't do it alone. It's the support from and for others that will strengthen our hand.
ALPA was invited to join the AALC. They refused, citing the fact that other unions were involved and they would have nothing to do with CAPA unless the member carriers agreed to join ALPA. I'll leave that one to you to digest.
So CAPA is independent. With carriers like American, SWA and others who seem to be doing OK without ALPA telling them how to run things. Are they perfect? No. Is anyone? The difference is that they have the support of the 1.6 million members of the IBT (whose Airline Division alone has grown by 35% in the past two years to over 65,000), and other labor unions. And are seen on the Hill as a strong and unified voice for all...not just some.
In the end, it may not be your cup of joe. For others to dismiss it simply because they are not members of ALPA is foolish.
As foolish as dismissing those of you who voice legitimate concerns over your own issues and are simply told to go to cooperate and graduate because anything else is suicidal.
Carl
10-29-2010, 08:54 AM
#1827
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
10-29-2010, 09:13 AM
#1828
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
All I'm hearing from the RJ masses is that LM is an RJ advocate and will work with them on stabilizing their career expectations.
10-29-2010, 09:16 AM
#1829
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B-7ER JFK
Posts: 931
10-29-2010, 09:33 AM
#1830
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
The UCAL guys also seem intent on reeling in the scope stuff. If that happens the regional contingent of ALPA fixes it self. If we do the same, it becomes a non-issue once again. (Perception or otherwise)
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