tsquare

Get elected... get the DC lobotomy.. and you won't care.


Landreu is the Leader. The Leader loves us.

scambo1

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Freight;

You listed several of the big ticket recent ALPA screw-ups. And I dont think the apologists can dispute any of them except one since it isn't in stone right yet, so here's their chance:

To anyone who thinks ALPA speaks for them please explain to me why the 1500 hour rule is a bad thing and not worthy of the associations support.

Here's your chance because its a showstopper for me.

satchip

I'm on your side with that rule. Has ALPA actually come out in favor of the waiver? It that an official stance or just rumor?

Mesabah

Earlier in this thread I supported ALPA, after learning their stance on the 1500hr rule, I have changed my position. They need to go.

exeagle

Well said. How many more major issues are we gonna let slide?

slowplay

You haven't "learned" anything regarding ALPA's stance. ALPA is on the ARC and isn't allowed to publicly comment. If you want a deeper discussion, check the Delta ALPA forum for posts by DF.

freightguy

Of course...can't say anything to the membership. After all ALPA is a 'super-secret' association. Who are you trying to fool slow? Here is what ALPA had to say about the 1500hr rule. This got my blood to the boiling point. ALPA is not only supporting reducing the 1500 requirement, they are doing it hand in hand with regional airline officials!



October 13, 2010

Committee Challenges New 1500 Hr Requirement For FO's

By Glenn Pew, Contributing Editor, Video Editor

The FAA's aviation safety bill passed earlier this year, but a new report suggests the included prerequisite 1,500 hours flight experience for commercial airline copilots may not be necessary. An FAA advisory committee led by a regional airline official has proposed that 500 actual flight hours may be enough. Language in the safety legislation says that the FAA Administrator "may allow specific academic training courses ... to be credited toward the total flight hours required." The committee suggests that through an elaborate structure of training courses, up to two-thirds of the safety law's required 1,500 flight hours could be satisfied with other credited training. The proposal is merely a recommendation and it is not clear that there is any wiggle room in other language that specifically imposes the flight hours requirement. Meanwhile, the proposal has reignited the total hours versus quality-of-training argument. And pilot groups, industry voices and safety advocates are weighing in.

Legislators who fought for the safety bill's language say the law explicitly requires 1,500 flight hours, and any modifications must be justified by a resultant increase in safety. The president of the Regional Airline Association, Roger Cohen, has a different opinion. Cohen said academic work is "far more useful in training pilots for modern airline operations" than hours spent "towing banners above the beach." As for the FAA, Administrator Randy Babbitt supports improved training over a general requirement for more flight hours. Babbitt has previously commented on the subject, saying "experience is not measured by flight time alone." The Regional Airline Association holds the view that a "proper mix of the experience and academic/training approaches" would best ensure safety. And two pilot groups represented on the committee have split on the issue. The Air Line Pilots Association backed the committee's recommendations, while the Coalition of Air Line Pilot Associations supported experience over even enhanced training.

Bucking Bar

ALPA does speak for me. I do not speak for ALPA, but in my opinion ALPA's right based on objective reasoning.

Captain Renslow had 3,379 hours and First Officer Shaw had 2,244 hours. Lets just get it out of the way up front that the proposed House Rule 5900 would have had no impact on preventing the crash of Colgan Air Flight 3407.

If we were to adopt a 1,500 hour rule, we already know there would be exceptions for a very few schools' students. Captain Reslow got his time at Gulfstream, a pay for training outfit we all know well.

If a 1,500 hour requirement is imposed, who then staffs the airplanes? Where does a pilot get 1,500 hours? The story ends up back at aviation schools that most do not teach deep stall and spin recoveries for liability reasons, or who do most of their training in a box bolted to the ground. Since they will have a monopoly on the exception to the rule, they will charge their students a fortune.

General Aviation? Check Flying? Night Cargo? Most of these sources of time building have gone the way of $5.50 AvGas, $350,000 training aircraft and a non existent insurance market for complex aircraft used in training.

The market's answer to a 1,500 hour rule is likely to come in the form of cabotage and foreign nationals who can make an end run around our system. Our logbooks are still mostly on the honor system and several friends from Europe who are flying at 121 carriers today have confided in me they just made up their flight time when they immigrated. (they were senior to me by the way ... they hired in while I was still logging time)

The primary factor that contributed to the accident is the assumption regional airlines make that "safety is a given." Colgan's management blamed the Captain and the First Officer for showing to work fatigued and completely blew off the notion that a girl can't exactly live in the New York area for $16,000 a year.

The other factor is that somebody should have pulled the plug on Renslow with a 50% checkride passage rate. However, the airline had no motivation to do so. They needed cheap pilots and they got what they paid for.

I understand your concern and we all feel reducing the pilot supply might help us restore our profession. However the 1,500 hour requirement will not have that effect. Making an impossible requirement for entry will only result in some opportunistic folks working their way around the rule.

The FAA already has the authority to shut Colgan down. The FAA POI wrote Colgan was a reactive organization ... simply punitive when something went wrong ... (not) proactive. The place to start is effective regulation by the Administrator.

Bucking Bar

What a chowder head. I'd say a banner tow pilot is familiar with accelerated stalls and recovery. They only do that about a dozen times a day.

freightguy

I disagree. The market's answer to the 1500 hr requirement will come as higher wages and QOL for the pilots to attract more experienced pilot to the industry. When supply goes down and demand goes up, wages increase in proportion to the demand. They definitely won't be able to get 1500 hr pilots to fly for $20,000 to $30,000 ranges at regionals thereby killing the regional industry. Why do you think regional airlines are hell bent on reducing the required number of hours?

About foreign pilots coming here to replace us: you cannot immigrate to the US to fly for an airliner. Immigrating to the US, getting a work permit and flying for an airliner is a very long and drawn out procedure. On the other hand, you really think foreign pilots are drooling to come here and fly for $hit wages? Do you even know any foreign pilots? I know many and they are flabbergasted to hear how much I make....especially looking at the wages to living cost ratio. In most of Asia, a mid-size jet pilot makes as much as 2-5 times more than a medical surgeon in their country....I'm not making it up...it is a fact.

Look at medical doctors in this country. The AMA has techniques similar to 1500hr rule to curb supply. AMA does everything in their power to limit supply from controlling seats at medical universities to placing huge obstacles for foreign doctors from immigrating to the US. That is why you wait weeks or months to go see a Dermatologist. At the end of the day, they make $200,000 to $500,000/yr. Why: low supply and high demand.