Delta Pilots Association
10-28-2010, 04:34 AM
#1741
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Status quo is no longer acceptable, either alpa changes or it needs to go. Alpa brought this upon it's self and almost every real issue in the last decade has only compounded their inability to change. There is a monumental conflict of interest within alpa when it represents the mainline and regional pilots at the same time.
If nothing more, I hope this dpa push causes change within alpa.
If nothing more, I hope this dpa push causes change within alpa.
Super;
I agree with everything you said, but the timing of everything right now (and I am not a crisis du jour guy) makes me wonder why we dont have the DPA front man running for MEC Chair. Hope and Change vs status quo.
I'm a Joe Lieberman moderate on this whole thing - or maybe I'm Missouri - Show Me.
10-28-2010, 05:34 AM
#1742
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B-7ER JFK
Posts: 931
I disagree.
This side show will only serve to divide and weaken us. This is not a free shot, it will have negative consequences for the Delta pilots.
And as far as the implication that the "Rj crowd" drives our negotiations. That's not true at all. Our scope is the result of the priorities of the Delta/NWA pilots, no one elses. Passing the buck solves nothing.
This side show will only serve to divide and weaken us. This is not a free shot, it will have negative consequences for the Delta pilots.
And as far as the implication that the "Rj crowd" drives our negotiations. That's not true at all. Our scope is the result of the priorities of the Delta/NWA pilots, no one elses. Passing the buck solves nothing.
ALPA doesn't pay for the services, ALPA is the services. They aren't contracted out to outside providers, they come from within. ALPA's head professional negotiator has been negotiating pilot contracts since 1979. Good luck getting someone like that on the open market. These kinds of resources just aren't available outside of ALPA. There are some things that you can get, usually for far greater cost, since there is no economy of scale, but many things that ALPA provides are only available within ALPA.
Experienced reps know that a "union" like the DPA would be an enormous disaster just waiting to fall flat on its face, and they would be unlikely to take part in it. You'd be left with the third and fourth string volunteers with little or no experience. But that's not what really matters. What really matters is the institutional knowledge from the ALPA staff that you would lose forever, regardless of whether the pilot volunteers stay. Have you been up to the 8th floor to see DALPA HQ? It's an impressive sight. There are dozens of staff members working constantly to represent your interests. From attorneys to benefits specialists to scheduling experts, you have an incredible amount of experienced staff. That doesn't come with you if you leave ALPA. And it's really irreplaceable.
It's not really a "profit," since a union is a non-profit organization, but it does bring in more revenue than the expenses that it generates.
Yes, I've seen that it's been brought up, but just because you've dismissed it doesn't mean that it's not important.
To the contrary, I don't think this vote will ever occur. You'll never get close to the cards required to file for an election. Your peers are far too smart to buy the snake oil from the salesman, even if you aren't.
Because these silly independent union campaigns are a needless distraction that serve only to divide pilots rather than to unify them.
The new ALPA President, one of your own pilots, got elected because of the support of mainline pilots, not just RJ pilots. The same was true of Captain Prater. Mainline carriers still control a majority of the votes within ALPA, and probably always will. The idea that ALPA has become an "RJ union" is absurd to anyone who has seen the internal politics of a BOD meeting.
ALPA doesn't publish the services agreements that it signs with other unions. However, many such agreements exist. Before we were ALPA, our independent union at AirTran, the NPA, had to contract for many services with ALPA that we were unable to provide for ourselves. APA, a union with an incredible dues revenue stream, still needs ALPA for support services in negotiations. All independent pilot unions have services agreements with ALPA from time to time. They sometimes try to get away from it, because some radical new anti-ALPA leaders get elected, but then they realize that they can't do it alone, and they come back for help. Eventually, they realize that they are better off joining ALPA. The NPA and FPA are perfect examples of this.
Experienced reps know that a "union" like the DPA would be an enormous disaster just waiting to fall flat on its face, and they would be unlikely to take part in it. You'd be left with the third and fourth string volunteers with little or no experience. But that's not what really matters. What really matters is the institutional knowledge from the ALPA staff that you would lose forever, regardless of whether the pilot volunteers stay. Have you been up to the 8th floor to see DALPA HQ? It's an impressive sight. There are dozens of staff members working constantly to represent your interests. From attorneys to benefits specialists to scheduling experts, you have an incredible amount of experienced staff. That doesn't come with you if you leave ALPA. And it's really irreplaceable.
It's not really a "profit," since a union is a non-profit organization, but it does bring in more revenue than the expenses that it generates.
Yes, I've seen that it's been brought up, but just because you've dismissed it doesn't mean that it's not important.
To the contrary, I don't think this vote will ever occur. You'll never get close to the cards required to file for an election. Your peers are far too smart to buy the snake oil from the salesman, even if you aren't.
Because these silly independent union campaigns are a needless distraction that serve only to divide pilots rather than to unify them.
The new ALPA President, one of your own pilots, got elected because of the support of mainline pilots, not just RJ pilots. The same was true of Captain Prater. Mainline carriers still control a majority of the votes within ALPA, and probably always will. The idea that ALPA has become an "RJ union" is absurd to anyone who has seen the internal politics of a BOD meeting.
ALPA doesn't publish the services agreements that it signs with other unions. However, many such agreements exist. Before we were ALPA, our independent union at AirTran, the NPA, had to contract for many services with ALPA that we were unable to provide for ourselves. APA, a union with an incredible dues revenue stream, still needs ALPA for support services in negotiations. All independent pilot unions have services agreements with ALPA from time to time. They sometimes try to get away from it, because some radical new anti-ALPA leaders get elected, but then they realize that they can't do it alone, and they come back for help. Eventually, they realize that they are better off joining ALPA. The NPA and FPA are perfect examples of this.
Might be time to take a break from the cool aid dudes...
10-28-2010, 06:53 AM
#1744
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Might be time to take a break from the cool aid, dude....and look at some facts and the history books....
10-28-2010, 06:56 AM
#1745
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
You're right it's a power struggle. That's what this whole DPA thing is, a power struggle. Guys with huge egos who are not in charge and want to be. Would it T, be for the benefit of DELTA pilots? Or would it be for the benefit of those who started this?
Let me take some turpentine and wipe off some of the paint I just laid on with a wide brush. Not all supporters of DPA would fall into the above statement. Not all followers of movements are privy to the motives of the leaders of the movement, some just believe the rhetoric. I just look at the two biggest proponents here, Carl "wildcat strike" Spackler. I wouldn't follow that guy out of the Chilean mine shaft.
Is ALPA da bomb? No, like Tsquare I have big problems with some of Nationals policies and bloated ruling class parochialism. We do have a new President so something is bound to change.
I do know one thing, I and the bottom 1000 or so pilots have Lee Moak and DALPA's innovative forward thinking to thank for my job. After numbers like last year, what is the historical reaction to airline management? FURLOUGH! Do you think Capt Courageous would have forced Delta not to furlough anyone? Fat chance.
I'm sorry if I peeved anyone off or hurt anyone's feelings. I figure I'm entitled after all the other crap that gets tossed against the wall around here.
Let me take some turpentine and wipe off some of the paint I just laid on with a wide brush. Not all supporters of DPA would fall into the above statement. Not all followers of movements are privy to the motives of the leaders of the movement, some just believe the rhetoric. I just look at the two biggest proponents here, Carl "wildcat strike" Spackler. I wouldn't follow that guy out of the Chilean mine shaft.
Is ALPA da bomb? No, like Tsquare I have big problems with some of Nationals policies and bloated ruling class parochialism. We do have a new President so something is bound to change.
I do know one thing, I and the bottom 1000 or so pilots have Lee Moak and DALPA's innovative forward thinking to thank for my job. After numbers like last year, what is the historical reaction to airline management? FURLOUGH! Do you think Capt Courageous would have forced Delta not to furlough anyone? Fat chance.
I'm sorry if I peeved anyone off or hurt anyone's feelings. I figure I'm entitled after all the other crap that gets tossed against the wall around here.
Your first paragraph hit on THE reason why I haven't sent in a card yet. I don't know enough about who the power behind the throne is. I want nothing to do with the likes of Dave Stevens... I think he was a fool. He proved that in the SLI negotiations. I need much more information.
And like you, I also think that Lee did a great job as head of DALPA. I know that there are many that want to give the company a bloody nose, and in these days, that is not the way to "win". It is nowhere near as gratifying... so for that reason I am willing to give him time at national.. but not too much time.
And isn't it amazing that a Vol and a Bammer can get along? Your fans were great this last weekend... we had a great time tailgating with them...
10-28-2010, 07:00 AM
#1746
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
We are very pleased to announce that our talks with the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) have borne fruit in many areas where we have pledged mutual cooperation, including ALPA’s generous offer to provide APA access to ALPA’s extensive capabilities in the area of economic and financial analysis and other related services. It is safe to assert that the relationship between ALPA and APA is the best it’s been in decades. Working together, we can advance the profession far more than acting as competitors.
How "generous" was that offer? Free? Did WE (ALPA) make a profit on it? This is the kind of garbage that has the potential to completely derail your argument. It goes straight to the point that anybody can have access to ALPA's wealth of resources. If they are getting it cheap.. or better yet.. free.. why in the hell should our dues be paying for it? Let's go independent and sponge of the RJ drivers for a change.
10-28-2010, 07:13 AM
#1747
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B-7ER JFK
Posts: 931
Why are you so afraid of competition? Open your horizon a bit and consider other options, be flexible instead of stubborn. When it's all said and done we are generally fighting for the same cause and results here.
10-28-2010, 07:29 AM
#1748
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
ALPA doesn't pay for the services, ALPA is the services. They aren't contracted out to outside providers, they come from within. ALPA's head professional negotiator has been negotiating pilot contracts since 1979. Good luck getting someone like that on the open market. These kinds of resources just aren't available outside of ALPA. There are some things that you can get, usually for far greater cost, since there is no economy of scale, but many things that ALPA provides are only available within ALPA.
You mean like APA apparently just did? Since they did not obtain those services from their own union wouldn't that be the definition of buying it on the open market? I have no problem with providing APA with those services providing we charged them a hell of a lot of money for that service... as a matter of fact, that should be resulting in some minute dues reduction... I know.. different subject for a different thread. I think that basically what you (or anybody in the know) is afraid to come out and say is that this was a free service to APA.. knowing the firestorm that would result. But for the end of your statement.. what kind of services are available only to subscription members?
Experienced reps know that a "union" like the DPA would be an enormous disaster just waiting to fall flat on its face, and they would be unlikely to take part in it. You'd be left with the third and fourth string volunteers with little or no experience. But that's not what really matters. What really matters is the institutional knowledge from the ALPA staff that you would lose forever, regardless of whether the pilot volunteers stay. Have you been up to the 8th floor to see DALPA HQ? It's an impressive sight. There are dozens of staff members working constantly to represent your interests. From attorneys to benefits specialists to scheduling experts, you have an incredible amount of experienced staff. That doesn't come with you if you leave ALPA. And it's really irreplaceable.
And yes I have been to the 8th floor at HQ. It is impressive. I wish my house had that much hardwood. And NOTHING is irreplaceable. By thinking that so, you have a one dimensional offense. You need to either throw or run with the ball to keep your opponent of balance.
Yes, I've seen that it's been brought up, but just because you've dismissed it doesn't mean that it's not important.
To the contrary, I don't think this vote will ever occur. You'll never get close to the cards required to file for an election. Your peers are far too smart to buy the snake oil from the salesman, even if you aren't.
Because these silly independent union campaigns are a needless distraction that serve only to divide pilots rather than to unify them.
To the contrary, I don't think this vote will ever occur. You'll never get close to the cards required to file for an election. Your peers are far too smart to buy the snake oil from the salesman, even if you aren't.
Because these silly independent union campaigns are a needless distraction that serve only to divide pilots rather than to unify them.
The new ALPA President, one of your own pilots, got elected because of the support of mainline pilots, not just RJ pilots. The same was true of Captain Prater. Mainline carriers still control a majority of the votes within ALPA, and probably always will. The idea that ALPA has become an "RJ union" is absurd to anyone who has seen the internal politics of a BOD meeting.
However, many such agreements exist. Before we were ALPA, our independent union at AirTran, the NPA, had to contract for many services with ALPA that we were unable to provide for ourselves. APA, a union with an incredible dues revenue stream, still needs ALPA for support services in negotiations. All independent pilot unions have services agreements with ALPA from time to time. They sometimes try to get away from it, because some radical new anti-ALPA leaders get elected, but then they realize that they can't do it alone, and they come back for help. Eventually, they realize that they are better off joining ALPA. The NPA and FPA are perfect examples of this.
I hear Billy Preston singing again
10-28-2010, 07:32 AM
#1749
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Status quo is no longer acceptable, either alpa changes or it needs to go. Alpa brought this upon it's self and almost every real issue in the last decade has only compounded their inability to change. There is a monumental conflict of interest within alpa when it represents the mainline and regional pilots at the same time.
If nothing more, I hope this dpa push causes change within alpa.
If nothing more, I hope this dpa push causes change within alpa.
THIS^^^^ Only time will tell whether the defenders are serious. We'll know by June of next year. Don't hold your breath
10-28-2010, 07:34 AM
#1750
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Wow.. football really IS life.
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