Delta Pilots Association
10-26-2010, 08:41 PM
#1661
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Recovering Airline Pilot
Posts: 460
I don't point out the lack of knowledge to make fun of you, I point it out because it's indicative of the problem in these ridiculous independent union campaigns. You have a bunch of guys leading the charge for a new independent union that will have no national expertise to assist them, and they don't have a clue about even the basics of running a union. I don't know about you, but when I need representation, I want someone who knows what he's doing, not some newbie who is trying to learn the ropes. The DPA wouldn't just be a single newbie trying to represent a pilot, it woukd be a an entire newbie organization trying to represent 12,000 pilots. For anyone who has ever had any serious involvement in running a union, it's an absurd proposition. We know it's impossible. Only the woefully inexperienced can think it's workable, let alone advisable.
You don't like some things that ALPA does? Then work to change them. Run for office. Bring a resolution to your next local council meeting. Join a committee. Do something productive. Supporting a decertification campaign is not productive.
Because it will be incapable of doing so. You can't switch from the incredible amount of resources that ALPA provides to an upstart independent union overnight and expect it to have any capability of hitting the ground running in representing 12,000 pilots. It's a crazy proposition.
10-27-2010, 03:42 AM
#1662
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Really? Direction? DPA is a group of guys trying to get this ship turned in the right direction. Do they have all the answers...no. DPA is nothing more to me than an opportunity we all have at putting the Delta Pilot's interests at the forefront. It amazes me you continue to defend ALPA with their record just over the past couple weeks, much less years and you try to scare people by polling data?
I have the pleasure of flying with some of the brightest people in the biz here at Delta and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that these same people could run a top-notch union. I have faith in us which is why I support DPA. It is you and me without the baggage of a conflicted bloated national organization. We will be the ones to chart our own direction without outside influence.
I have the pleasure of flying with some of the brightest people in the biz here at Delta and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that these same people could run a top-notch union. I have faith in us which is why I support DPA. It is you and me without the baggage of a conflicted bloated national organization. We will be the ones to chart our own direction without outside influence.
The idea sounds great, but the reality is that none of this will happen because of the little brush fires that will need to take the majority of your attention away from the big picture. I agree on many levels that has happened over the last decade within ALPA/DALPA. It will be the same song, just on a different radio station.
It is a lot easier and beleive it or not cheaper to fix ALPA than to start anew.
Guess who APA uses and consults for their negotiations? Yep, ALPA.
10-27-2010, 06:34 AM
#1663
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
If only it were true. I mean that. It sounds new and exciting, and the possibilities are just so endless, it just makes me so excited....... I think PCL does a great job stating a few of the reasons why I have trepidation of an independent.
The idea sounds great, but the reality is that none of this will happen because of the little brush fires that will need to take the majority of your attention away from the big picture. I agree on many levels that has happened over the last decade within ALPA/DALPA. It will be the same song, just on a different radio station.
It is a lot easier and beleive it or not cheaper to fix ALPA than to start anew.
Guess who APA uses and consults for their negotiations? Yep, ALPA.
The idea sounds great, but the reality is that none of this will happen because of the little brush fires that will need to take the majority of your attention away from the big picture. I agree on many levels that has happened over the last decade within ALPA/DALPA. It will be the same song, just on a different radio station.
It is a lot easier and beleive it or not cheaper to fix ALPA than to start anew.
Guess who APA uses and consults for their negotiations? Yep, ALPA.
10-27-2010, 06:38 AM
#1664
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,991
The National Mediation Board handles representational elections in airline and railroad elections. The NLRB has no involvement whatsoever in our industry.
I don't point out the lack of knowledge to make fun of you, I point it out because it's indicative of the problem in these ridiculous independent union campaigns. You have a bunch of guys leading the charge for a new independent union that will have no national expertise to assist them, and they don't have a clue about even the basics of running a union.
If DPA were to take over would not all the DAL ALPA experience now reside in the DPA?
I don't know about you, but when I need representation, I want someone who knows what he's doing, not some newbie who is trying to learn the ropes. The DPA wouldn't just be a single newbie trying to represent a pilot, it woukd be a an entire newbie organization trying to represent 12,000 pilots. For anyone who has ever had any serious involvement in running a union, it's an absurd proposition. We know it's impossible. Only the woefully inexperienced can think it's workable, let alone advisable.
You don't like some things that ALPA does? Then work to change them. Run for office. Bring a resolution to your next local council meeting. Join a committee. Do something productive. Supporting a decertification campaign is not productive.
Depends on the result. At the least maybe ALPA will stop taking DAL support for granted.
Well, that's my point as well. How can you possibly support an organization that as of yet has no plan, no proposed structure, no nothing. They don't know how they're going to gauge pilot opinion, because they have no experience and have never had to do it before.
DAL has hundreds of pilots with a lot of union experience at ALPA and other unions.
If the DPA were to ever actually become a reality, then the new leaders would then have to scramble to figure out how to gauge pilot opinion. Guess what they would probably do? Go to the industry expert on polling, Phil Comstock, the same guy who does ALPA's polling and the polling of all of the other independent pilots unions. So, how has your polling changed? How has your union changed in this regard? It hasn't. Except that the people in the leadership getting the polling results will be inexperienced and ill-equipped to know what to do with it. Not a recipe for success.
Because it will be incapable of doing so. You can't switch from the incredible amount of resources that ALPA provides to an upstart independent union overnight and expect it to have any capability of hitting the ground running in representing 12,000 pilots. It's a crazy proposition.
I don't point out the lack of knowledge to make fun of you, I point it out because it's indicative of the problem in these ridiculous independent union campaigns. You have a bunch of guys leading the charge for a new independent union that will have no national expertise to assist them, and they don't have a clue about even the basics of running a union.
If DPA were to take over would not all the DAL ALPA experience now reside in the DPA?
I don't know about you, but when I need representation, I want someone who knows what he's doing, not some newbie who is trying to learn the ropes. The DPA wouldn't just be a single newbie trying to represent a pilot, it woukd be a an entire newbie organization trying to represent 12,000 pilots. For anyone who has ever had any serious involvement in running a union, it's an absurd proposition. We know it's impossible. Only the woefully inexperienced can think it's workable, let alone advisable.
You don't like some things that ALPA does? Then work to change them. Run for office. Bring a resolution to your next local council meeting. Join a committee. Do something productive. Supporting a decertification campaign is not productive.
Depends on the result. At the least maybe ALPA will stop taking DAL support for granted.
Well, that's my point as well. How can you possibly support an organization that as of yet has no plan, no proposed structure, no nothing. They don't know how they're going to gauge pilot opinion, because they have no experience and have never had to do it before.
DAL has hundreds of pilots with a lot of union experience at ALPA and other unions.
If the DPA were to ever actually become a reality, then the new leaders would then have to scramble to figure out how to gauge pilot opinion. Guess what they would probably do? Go to the industry expert on polling, Phil Comstock, the same guy who does ALPA's polling and the polling of all of the other independent pilots unions. So, how has your polling changed? How has your union changed in this regard? It hasn't. Except that the people in the leadership getting the polling results will be inexperienced and ill-equipped to know what to do with it. Not a recipe for success.
Because it will be incapable of doing so. You can't switch from the incredible amount of resources that ALPA provides to an upstart independent union overnight and expect it to have any capability of hitting the ground running in representing 12,000 pilots. It's a crazy proposition.
I am not necessarily for the DPA. I am however 100% in favor of a thorough discussion followed by a vote. Lets air this out - ALPA should welcome the opportunity to show us how good they really are in a head to head comparison with the DPA.
According to your post we are ALPA, period. I disagree with this - we should be ALPA as long as its bests for the majority of DAL pilots. I do not buy your assertion that any of the services ALPA provides are irreplaceable. As a matter of fact the DPA could be the start of a mainline only pilots union with UCAL shortly joining. We would have a huge budget and would not have to spend $$$ on RJ issues.
The future of ALPA and the DPA is not yet written - the possibilities for both are numerous. One thing that you have not mentioned is what would happen to ALPA if DAL left - UCAL would quickly follow and ALPA would almost certainly evolve into an RJ union.
Scoop
Last edited by Scoop; 10-27-2010 at 06:22 PM.
10-27-2010, 06:58 AM
#1665
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Really? Direction? DPA is a group of guys trying to get this ship turned in the right direction. Do they have all the answers...no. DPA is nothing more to me than an opportunity we all have at putting the Delta Pilot's interests at the forefront. It amazes me you continue to defend ALPA with their record just over the past couple weeks, much less years and you try to scare people by polling data?
I have the pleasure of flying with some of the brightest people in the biz here at Delta and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that these same people could run a top-notch union. I have faith in us which is why I support DPA. It is you and me without the baggage of a conflicted bloated national organization. We will be the ones to chart our own direction without outside influence.
I have the pleasure of flying with some of the brightest people in the biz here at Delta and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that these same people could run a top-notch union. I have faith in us which is why I support DPA. It is you and me without the baggage of a conflicted bloated national organization. We will be the ones to chart our own direction without outside influence.
Yes sir.^^^^^^^^^
Go Dawgs.. win the cocktail party
10-27-2010, 07:06 AM
#1666
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
The National Mediation Board handles representational elections in airline and railroad elections. The NLRB has no involvement whatsoever in our industry.
I don't point out the lack of knowledge to make fun of you, I point it out because it's indicative of the problem in these ridiculous independent union campaigns. You have a bunch of guys leading the charge for a new independent union that will have no national expertise to assist them, and they don't have a clue about even the basics of running a union. I don't know about you, but when I need representation, I want someone who knows what he's doing, not some newbie who is trying to learn the ropes. The DPA wouldn't just be a single newbie trying to represent a pilot, it woukd be a an entire newbie organization trying to represent 12,000 pilots. For anyone who has ever had any serious involvement in running a union, it's an absurd proposition. We know it's impossible. Only the woefully inexperienced can think it's workable, let alone advisable.
You don't like some things that ALPA does? Then work to change them. Run for office. Bring a resolution to your next local council meeting. Join a committee. Do something productive. Supporting a decertification campaign is not productive.
Well, that's my point as well. How can you possibly support an organization that as of yet has no plan, no proposed structure, no nothing. They don't know how they're going to gauge pilot opinion, because they have no experience and have never had to do it before. If the DPA were to ever actually become a reality, then the new leaders would then have to scramble to figure out how to gauge pilot opinion. Guess what they would probably do? Go to the industry expert on polling, Phil Comstock, the same guy who does ALPA's polling and the polling of all of the other independent pilots unions. So, how has your polling changed? How has your union changed in this regard? It hasn't. Except that the people in the leadership getting the polling results will be inexperienced and ill-equipped to know what to do with it. Not a recipe for success.
Because it will be incapable of doing so. You can't switch from the incredible amount of resources that ALPA provides to an upstart independent union overnight and expect it to have any capability of hitting the ground running in representing 12,000 pilots. It's a crazy proposition.
I don't point out the lack of knowledge to make fun of you, I point it out because it's indicative of the problem in these ridiculous independent union campaigns. You have a bunch of guys leading the charge for a new independent union that will have no national expertise to assist them, and they don't have a clue about even the basics of running a union. I don't know about you, but when I need representation, I want someone who knows what he's doing, not some newbie who is trying to learn the ropes. The DPA wouldn't just be a single newbie trying to represent a pilot, it woukd be a an entire newbie organization trying to represent 12,000 pilots. For anyone who has ever had any serious involvement in running a union, it's an absurd proposition. We know it's impossible. Only the woefully inexperienced can think it's workable, let alone advisable.
You don't like some things that ALPA does? Then work to change them. Run for office. Bring a resolution to your next local council meeting. Join a committee. Do something productive. Supporting a decertification campaign is not productive.
Well, that's my point as well. How can you possibly support an organization that as of yet has no plan, no proposed structure, no nothing. They don't know how they're going to gauge pilot opinion, because they have no experience and have never had to do it before. If the DPA were to ever actually become a reality, then the new leaders would then have to scramble to figure out how to gauge pilot opinion. Guess what they would probably do? Go to the industry expert on polling, Phil Comstock, the same guy who does ALPA's polling and the polling of all of the other independent pilots unions. So, how has your polling changed? How has your union changed in this regard? It hasn't. Except that the people in the leadership getting the polling results will be inexperienced and ill-equipped to know what to do with it. Not a recipe for success.
Because it will be incapable of doing so. You can't switch from the incredible amount of resources that ALPA provides to an upstart independent union overnight and expect it to have any capability of hitting the ground running in representing 12,000 pilots. It's a crazy proposition.
So in other words... if ALPA were to get the boot at DAL.... all the players that are now serving would just take their ball and go home. Hmmmmmm to me that sounds as if they are in it for themselves and not for the greater good of the pilot group. /sarcasm
And what about all the other guys that had experience running the union in years past? I guess their experience counts for nothing? None of them would be willing to step up to the plate? They will be falling all over themselves for that opportunity because everyone at the top of this organization has a huge ego.. sorry.. but that's true and they all know it. There would be a bit of a power struggle, absolutely true.. but it would be for the benefit of the DELTA pilots..
And it appears that you are also saying that the guys now at the top are not expendable. If that is true... let's amend the terms of office part of the bylaws and have a recall to get Lee back because it seems that Armageddon is about to befall all of us.
10-27-2010, 07:08 AM
#1667
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
2) Does the union make a profit on the services they provide to non affiliated unions? They sure as hell better be......
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