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10-26-2010, 10:27 AM

#1641

Carl Spackler

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Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun

Wow, Management is going to love having that kind of information at their fingertips. Makes negotiations easy when you know the other sides position. Never ever met a negotiator who would work under those conditions.

Yes. Unlike before where management had no idea of what the results of our surverys were.

Carl

10-26-2010, 10:37 AM

#1642

Carl Spackler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

And for that pilot that wants to be in management and has been asked to fetched your polling data because he can, well you just gave the end game position to the opposing team. Brilliant.

Any data we have is known by management almost instantly. That's the name of the game. You have to know that going in. If you don't know that...you need to get a little more brilliant dude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Ever think that a contract opener is fairly close to where the middle of this group lies?

An opener that is near the middle is a failure from the start. An opener that is viewed as wildly out of the ballpark on both sides, is how it's done. Wise up!

Carl

10-26-2010, 10:38 AM

#1643

Carl Spackler

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Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomgoodman

Historically, both sides would open with an absurd "wish list", haggle their way to somewhere in the middle, sign, and claim a victory. Somebody would always ask "Why don't we save time and open closer to the midpoint, since that's where we always end up?" The answer was "Because that would change the location of the 'middle'."
Even when all the negotiators know approximately where the result will be, they have to play the game, lest their constituents grumble that they gave in too easily.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This!

Carl

10-26-2010, 10:42 AM

#1644

tomgoodman

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Joined APC: Feb 2006

Position: 767A (Ret)

Posts: 6,248

Pilot opinion surveys

It just might be helpful if management had access to an accurate pilot opinion survey, provided that it showed firm determination to obtain contract improvements. Management always talked to some pilots, and would then erroneously claim that the union didn't really reflect rank-and-file sentiment.

10-26-2010, 10:45 AM

#1645

Carl Spackler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Columbia

Just curious, were all the circa C2K contracts (AMR, DAL, UAL) negotiated this way, i.e. historically? Maybe those successes need to be considered the "new normal?" It seems more and more that a strike threat is no longer in the quiver as it was in the late 2000s.

A strike ALWAYS has to be in the quiver. And I don't mean just the threat of a strike. I mean an MEC that tells pilots to start tightening your belts RIGHT NOW. Start saving your money RIGHT NOW. Plan your finances around being able to be out for months RIGHT NOW. Unfortunately, it's kind of like military might - it does you no good if everyone is sure you'll never use it.

There's always the chance that negotiations go well based on mutual respect and recall of what the pilots have given to save the airline. But if they don't go that way, the above warnings need to be given to the pilot group right away.

Carl

10-26-2010, 10:47 AM

#1646

Carl Spackler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tomgoodman

That "take it or leave it" posture doesn't work well, even during a crisis, and it certainly shouldn't work now. As far as the strike threat, If the pilots don't think they have it during profitable times, then they don't have it at all.

Make a poster of this and put it up on the walls!!!

Carl

10-26-2010, 10:49 AM

#1647

Carl Spackler

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Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomgoodman

I agree with that. Accurate data going in shows everyone that you are on very solid ground...and serious about holding that ground.

Carl

10-26-2010, 01:11 PM

#1648

acl65pilot

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Joined APC: Jun 2006

Position: A-320A

Posts: 18,563

Carl;
I would not state that. I also beleive that it is easy to take the position you do just for arguments sake. I do not want the results of what the middle of the bell curve shows for pay etc out there publicly.

You ever think that maybe the survey results that they have now, show something that they want to work on?

The only way you would ever want them out there is if they were so insane and the unity so tight that everyone was on board. To have that we need to be in a different place than we are today. DPA would not be where it is for sure.

10-26-2010, 02:51 PM

#1649

Carl Spackler

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Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

It's a new way of thinking acl. Something you cannot do when it comes to ALPA. If it's not the way we've always done it, then it must be wrong in your eyes. I get that. Some of us want to try new things and think new thoughts. You wouldn't understand.

Carl

10-26-2010, 06:25 PM

#1650

Splash

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Joined APC: Mar 2010

Position: Boeing Boss

Posts: 335

Quote:

Originally Posted by scambo1

-------
Splash;

ALPA national has blown it. I have not sent in a card though because I am hopeful that LM will make his plan known for ALPAs direction going forward. I will make my decision based upon his action or inaction.

DPA is an in house union - think of it like DALPA without ALPA national...no agenda beside what is best for the Delta Pilots.

I am not at all certain why DPA has to be vilified. Its motives and objectives have to be AT LEAST no less pure than DALPA practicioners - but without ALPA nat'l.

I'll use your post, since it's indicative of the posts by tsquare, CapnCrunch and Carl too.

You have no clue how polling will be conducted at DPA, you just HOPE is isn't like the polling ALPA did/does. You are vilifying ALPA when I can guarantee you DPA will use the same method for constructing its negotiating priorities as ALPA does. It will not (sorry, Carl, you're clueless) publish them. Steve Dickson is a member in Good Standing, and also negotiates for the company.

The polling DPA does would show a pilot group with objectives and expectations that vary on many issues. They would have to have some method of reconciling the differences. I'd love to hear your vision of how DPA would resolve those differences, if not by the governing body.

My point is that every flaw you see in ALPA would exist in DPA. In fact, the DPA boss, and their website claim many of the ALPA volunteers would continue in their same positions. Interesting!

So what you really dislike is National?

Then frame your argument around that, and defend your claim that change is needed. All I've heard so far is anger. That's great for a hockey game, but stupid for serving a pilot group.