tsquare

Fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail....

tsquare

Naaaaaaaah you are deflecting the issue a bit. My point is that those turns... 9 hour... 10 hour.. it really makes little difference, in order to qualify for the proposed ruling as I understand it.. (and I freely admit that my understanding might be a little lacking)... will absolutely dictate that those trips will be non-commutable on BOTH ends. It will turn what you said above into a 5 day trip.. not a 4 day, and it will require that YOU pay for 2 hotel nights... And guys at your level on the pecking order will not bid those. I just don't see it.

But if you want to get back on the safety thread.. no.. it is not safer than an 8 hour day, that thought is ludicrous and just plain stupid. It is illogical to think that in any shape manner or form that it is.

Karnak

I understand your desire to be as negative as possible, lest you be forced to admit Moak did a good job. Gaze around the industry and give me your assessment of where Delta fits right now.

The merger was a success.
We are adding mainline aircraft, and parking RJs.
We are hiring.
We are adding flying.

gloopy

Of course Delta was. So by that logic, if we can grow Delta by outsourcing 100, 150, 200 seaters...we should, right? 50 seaters are shrinking because they are old, they are insanely inneficient at today's prices and slot controlled world and they have outlived their usefullness. For now at least. If someone invents a next gen one that sips fuel who knows they could be back by the thousands and there would be nothing to stop it.

Any way you slice it, outsourced RJ's are not "good for Delta". That was a lie and a sales job then and it is the same today. Oh and bonus, many of the gains that the flying was sold for are long gone and we have 250+ large RJ's flying around with first class and soon wifi, the smallest mainline plane will soon be 150 seats, regionals are already ordering 100+ seaters. In addition, the head of the union has an unapologetic not too distant past defending gutting the profession by endorsing the continued relinquishing of a massive amount of flying (around half the block hours/pilot jobs) for the purpose of allowing management to shop it to the lowest bidder while actually thinking it provides us with long term pricing power at the bargaining table. He could address the issue, but instead refuses to even mention the issue exists. That, IMHO, is something to be concerned with.

gloopy

OK, Moak is dealing with the merger of 2 airlines. Call them X and Y, who cares which is which.

X has no furloughs, is not in BK, has a relatively junior pilot group by comparison and only narrow bodies.

Y has an extremely senior pilot group, tons of guys on furlough, an about to be sold off alter ego not even a wholly owned and still on the same certificate, widebodies, is in BK and argueably short timers to the Ch 7 courthouse steps.

Both have radically differing views of what an SLI should look like.

Both have agreed to agree to binding arbitration if necessary.

The combined airline is no where even remotely close to being a global powerhouse and synnergies to be gained are no where near DL/NWA.

So, how exactly would Moak custom craft the identical DL/NWA results, morale and combined company culture in that situation?

You simply can not compare the two merger situations. They were light years apart. Moak should get credit for doing a good job. But it is infinitely easier to do a good job in that case than in the USAir merger.

US/AW was argueable irreconcileable from the get go, and in any case the potential of the end result was minimal even if everything went perfectly. DL/NW was vastly different on all accounts. I guess Kennedy was a better president than Adams because Adams lacked the vision for a goal oriented space program.

capncrunch

Moak did all this, he is amazing.

NWA320pilot

^^^^^^^^^^^ This

slowplay

You know, there's another example out there. It's called UAL/CAL. Why don't you rack up the scorecard there for us, gloomy? I mean, their merger closed with no stock issuance to the pilots. Their merger closed without their pilots being included at all. Are they a global powerhouse with synergies?

I know it's fun to hate on success, and give credit to anyone or anything but where it might be due... Even the UAL/CAL MEC chairpersons agreed that our template works.

And I'm not hating on UAL/CAL. I'm hopeful that they will be able to achieve some significant gains. That'd be good for all of us.

Carl Spackler

Yes. Surveys and polls controlled completely by ALPA.

Really? You know this...how?

My question is: Do you represent the mainstream management/ALPA guy?

If "most" of the pilots you talk to are the management/ALPA types comprising your echo chamber, then I'm not too surprised. But as always, you're doing your part to lower expectations. Management/ALPA must be so proud of you.

My prediction is that a 64% pay increase is going to become more and more the norm. Here's why:

1. A minimum of 9 more quarterly reports with very heavy profits (due to the tremendous over-sacrifice of this pilot group),

2. The crashing value of the US dollar will make a 64% pay increase required to keep up with a modest increase in QOL from today's level.

3. C2K pay rates will represent much less real purchasing power, than back in 2001.

Pay restoration to C2K levels is a minimum starting point. And even at that, will represent a large loss from 2001.

Carl

Karnak

No! No! No! Just the BAD stuff! He gets no credit. Acknowledging leadership is not something that's done by the keyboard warriors here at APC! Only failure is allowed to be recognized, but the frame-of-reference sometimes has to be shuffled awkwardly to make it work. In that regard, this is the home of genius!

The pilots at our peers, AMR, UAL, CAL...they're kicking our tails! Hiring more pilots, growing faster, tapped for larger Profit Sharing, and basking in the security of a well-executed merger.

Golly I wish I was there!

If Moak had been tougher and harnessed the anger of our pilot group, we'd be making as much as our brothers at AMR/CAL/UAL...and every RJ flying our code would have been replaced by DC-9s!