Delta Pilots Association
10-19-2010, 02:29 AM
#1391
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
So, tsquare, you're saying a bill with 9 positive changes and 1 negative one should be killed because of that 1 negative? Seriously, I'm asking a legitimate question. Of course, we'd like 10 positives, or at least 9 positives and zero negatives, but those may or may not realistically be options.
So, is 9 good and 1 bad better than no change?
So, is 9 good and 1 bad better than no change?
10-19-2010, 02:32 AM
#1392
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Just because he is telling you that it is a bad deal, doesn't mean that it is chest thumping and all those other things... it is a debate. But that's fine... I don't think Carl will get furloughed either...
10-19-2010, 02:34 AM
#1393
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
10-19-2010, 02:39 AM
#1394
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Well if our reps are as solid as many hope they are, and if our group is motivated and involved, and if the current group of managers (maybe even...leaders?) is a tenth as long term committed to Delta as they claim to be, we should be able to get a quick TA that provides an immediate increase in pay (probably not C2K + COLA and a fully funded A-plan, obviously) but a solid DOS step forward...AND hold the line on scope...AND make substantial progress in reclaiming scope...AND several years of COLA PLUS several precent each year...etc, then we can make progress towards restoration while breaking the Dubinsky lynchmob/MBA mercenary hack broken record that has plagued most of our industry for a very long time.
Lot of "ifs" in that equation though, but that is what it's going to take to break the mold. We shall see.
Lot of "ifs" in that equation though, but that is what it's going to take to break the mold. We shall see.
10-19-2010, 04:06 AM
#1395
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I've done some time as a volunteer, granted not at the Nat'l level, nonetheless, the ALPA of even 20 years ago and the concept of "common goals" was a much easier item to define.
I am one of those guys that sees serious issues with that "common goals" target ever being hit in the current day environment.
Take a look at the big picture and tell me how ALPA can truly pursue gains for all members at this point. Say UAL/CAL achieve serious scope improvement during their JCBA negotiations.....gain for them....who's going to loose their job....an ALPA member flying at a regional in most cases. True, there are many UAL express that are not ALPA, but you get my point.
And the questions could go on about NPRM, ATP 1500, or whatever. The fact is, an answer that benefits one demographic of ALPA negatively impacts another.
Perhaps not a conflict of interest, but a conflict nonetheless. I don't see a strategic plan that shows a true plan of attack that will ultimately improve the whole membership at this point. Rather a poor day to day reaction that simply perpetuates the decline of the profession.
It is the paradigm shift and the realization of the fact that ALPA cannot resolve that conflict that will probably make movements such as DPA eventually succeed in my opinion. One was tried at UA about 4 years ago. Failed, but they may have been a little ahead of the bow wave and poorly timed. If DPA succeeds, given Moak is, one of their own, I think the writing is on the wall for ALPA's decline.
My 2 centavos.
Frats,
Lee
I am one of those guys that sees serious issues with that "common goals" target ever being hit in the current day environment.
Take a look at the big picture and tell me how ALPA can truly pursue gains for all members at this point. Say UAL/CAL achieve serious scope improvement during their JCBA negotiations.....gain for them....who's going to loose their job....an ALPA member flying at a regional in most cases. True, there are many UAL express that are not ALPA, but you get my point.
And the questions could go on about NPRM, ATP 1500, or whatever. The fact is, an answer that benefits one demographic of ALPA negatively impacts another.
Perhaps not a conflict of interest, but a conflict nonetheless. I don't see a strategic plan that shows a true plan of attack that will ultimately improve the whole membership at this point. Rather a poor day to day reaction that simply perpetuates the decline of the profession.
It is the paradigm shift and the realization of the fact that ALPA cannot resolve that conflict that will probably make movements such as DPA eventually succeed in my opinion. One was tried at UA about 4 years ago. Failed, but they may have been a little ahead of the bow wave and poorly timed. If DPA succeeds, given Moak is, one of their own, I think the writing is on the wall for ALPA's decline.
My 2 centavos.
Frats,
Lee
The ever fearful DFR issue would be taken care of. You actually would be representing both parties with the scope recapture. I am sure Bar will jump in and tell you that this IS exactly what needs to be done.
10-19-2010, 04:19 AM
#1396
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
What does having "issues with it" mean? This is more of that slippery language you use so often. Does it mean you'll give serious consideration to a new in house union, or just working harder to change ALPA from within? Issues?
What is a bigger threat to our careers is Emirates trying to levy the UAE's allowance of military base locations for more landing rights for their carrier in this country. Europe and Canada shot back and lost basing rights there. If we have to settle for something less than 1500 hrs to get the government to back fighting the UAE on this, I understand it. It is all about politics and the maneuvering that always goes on. Changing unions will not all of a sudden allow every issue to be dealt with separately.
The deal was supposed to be 1500 hours. Now you're already conceding half that requirement? Dude!
You couldn't have mischaracterized me more. It is just the opposite. Too many good people go to ALPA and within no time flat, the structure called ALPA corrupts them into forgetting who they work for. That structure of policies and bylaws authored by entrenched staffers, lobbyists and cowardly lawyers are the cancer that will kill ALPA.
Carl
Carl
I have seen people change their tunes when starting ALPA work. I often wondered why? I have had a few explain it to me. It comes down to the fact that the solution is never simple. There are people that need to go in DC. I agree with that.
10-19-2010, 04:31 AM
#1397
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,595
Everytime there is a merger at Delta there is a effort to vote in a new union. The last effort was heavily backed behind the scenes by the company and 4th floor. I heard the same about this time. Even had a few specific names mentioned that are involved. This is all a huge management wet dream. They are loving every moment of it!
10-19-2010, 04:44 AM
#1398
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
Everytime there is a merger at Delta there is a effort to vote in a new union. The last effort was heavily backed behind the scenes by the company and 4th floor. I heard the same about this time. Even had a few specific names mentioned that are involved. This is all a huge management wet dream. They are loving every moment of it!
10-19-2010, 05:00 AM
#1399
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,595
I have not nor have I ever been a ALPA employee. The closest thing I have ever come was working as a strike coordinator for pilots living in my area in the 01 contract.
10-19-2010, 05:21 AM
#1400
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Retired, again...
Posts: 608
Carl, et al :
During my 30 years @ FDX, we went from no union, to flight advisory board, to in-house, to ALPA, back to in-house, back to ALPA.
Each had the plusses and minuses, but in the end we didn't have the resources to be successful against a well organized union busting management....hence ALPA II.
The devil is always in the contract details, but overall ALPA association has benefitted the rank & file @ FDX..IMHO.......However, FDX ALPA retained MEMBER RATIFICATION.
Unfortunately the members ratified a woefully inadequate LOA for the HKG foreign domicile, but the MEMBERS had the ability to REJECT an LOA contrary to their interests.
Can DAL pilots regain member ratification....including LEC/MEC elections under ALPA/DALPA by -laws ?????
Regards,
BG
Each had the plusses and minuses, but in the end we didn't have the resources to be successful against a well organized union busting management....hence ALPA II.
The devil is always in the contract details, but overall ALPA association has benefitted the rank & file @ FDX..IMHO.......However, FDX ALPA retained MEMBER RATIFICATION.
Unfortunately the members ratified a woefully inadequate LOA for the HKG foreign domicile, but the MEMBERS had the ability to REJECT an LOA contrary to their interests.
Can DAL pilots regain member ratification....including LEC/MEC elections under ALPA/DALPA by -laws ?????
Regards,
BG
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