slowplay

Take a look at the round trip...then tell me how it would have to be done under the proposed rules. There's a lot of red herrings being thrown around here.

Jack Bauer

It is so frustrating to see ALPA blow it on some of the most important items that will effect our health and safety the remainder of our careers. When all the smoke clears ALPA will simply say "oh sorry that was the earlier administration... we gotta just move on...at least ALPA got to participate in the process". The position ALPA has taken on rest and duty times is indefensible and reason alone to go a different direction.

scambo1

An apologist is one who defends an idea or institution.

In many tangible ways, ALPA is broken and indefensible. However, like some churches, they are in a grow or fail mode. If they don't grow they wont have the "leverage" to do what they think is important. Problem is, ALPA has grown, but they have not leveraged their size to do the right things. The things we pay them to do. The things they said they were going to do when they got big.

I have a couple thoughts about alpa: 1. The ALPA leadership must be prepared to take action on behalf of their constituents which may require them to go to jail. 2. ALPA lawyers need to take a back seat to recovering this job to a better level (If LaHood can play games the way he does why not ALPA?)

Like a failing church, it isn't the doctrine that is the problem it is the practicioners. Are we just promoting the wrong ALPA people?

scambo1

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Slow;

Narita is a base filled with people on shortcall (aka layover) thats how they would man the trips.

acl65pilot

Like DALPA for now our goals and views coincide on a great many issues with the company. There will come a time when they do not. It is just a matter of time.

I cannot speak for RA, but in general terms the ATA and airlines in general would love to have four of the five major pilot groups at odds with each other. (FEDEX included) If each of us wanted something different with our own independent unions it would be much easier for the unified voice of the ATA to steamroll us in DC. There are issues that are important to all of us, but if you do not have a single political machine with one voice making our case, it is much easier to divide and conquer.

WRT the "Proactive Engagement" there are many benefits to it. The first is not directly tied to us and DAL. It is the attention that the financial community has given to it. They watch it, note it, and like it when "Labor" is present at the investor calls. No labor strife means good things to the financial community. As RA has stated airlines are debt controlled now, so this makes this the linchpin in all of it. Second, is the fact that we can get small items agreed to without a long drawn out process. Basically taking positions at opposite ends of an issue because that is where we are expected to be. Third, is also very important and that is the ability to remove ourselves from proactive engagement. With reference to the first item, removing ourselves will make the financial community also take note, and as a result they will be less likely to offer the same deals that they would under better employee relations.

Now that these concepts to the National level. It has been written that his style will be good for airline stocks. This may be very true, but the converse would be true too. Removing "Proactive Engagement" at a national level would make the entire sector suffer. (Leverage on a very large scale) Furthermore, if all of the ALPA pilots partook in this "Incremental Bites at the Apple" we would be able to pattern up with greater frequency. The steps may be smaller but using a time value money approach it means more money paid to each pilot over the same period of time. It means that you could deal with pay and work rules every few years, and smaller items like the 23K issue etc as needed. It also means that we as ALPA pilots rationalize our wages amongst the carriers so that over time we all get more. (More ALPA carriers and pilot groups making the same pay takes pilot wages out of the variable cost column) If we make the same or are very close shorter contracts are easier to attain and section six cycles will be able to be completed with greater frequency. It allows more stairs to be built quicker.

Now as to why the ATA and or RA would prefer for this not to happen give the engagement we have now: Splitting the unity on a National level allows pilots to do what they do bet, destroy each other over greed and self interest. It allows the stagnation on the political, compensation, and work rule fronts take many more years to attain because we are little independents that do not have a ridged National framework in which to unify our message.

I have discussed this before, but there are also bigger reasons. ALPA and IFALPA provided the framework for the JV to occur. Take that away and we would be vying for more flying at the AF pilots expense and they with us. The fame work allowed us to come to rational agreement among a magnitude of carries and pilot groups. Not having this would have allowed the airlines to exploit our greed and as a result saved them money by driving costs lower.

There are benefits to using the current game plan, but also benefits from removing it. That is the danger with us being the camel that they allowed in to the tent. As a result the end state would be to go in the totally opposite divisive sort of relationship that a bunch of independent unions could help usher in.

Jack Bauer

Interestingly enough I ran into two Delta guys last week that I haven't talked to in years. In the course of each conversations before I mentioned anything about DPA, they brought up what was going on and that they had sent in cards. They are both level headed, intelligent guys that I admire. Apparently the word is getting around that the winds of change are in motion.

contrails

I know, the return would probably require 4, so you're right in that this was a bad example.

But there are flights out there that would not be a red herring at all.

acl65pilot

I beleive that the biggest issue is that the rank and file prefer to fight each other than to unite behind a common goal(s). It is easy to throw stones, but quite another to volunteer to do the work that needs to be done. Getting involved is the biggest thing any pilot can do. Do not like the answers demand change, and the best way to do that is to make sure that there are people that are like minded working with you.

Like you have said, the dogma and doctrine are not the issues, it is the interpretation. Find people that interpret it better. We are the people that will be involved with DPA. Our pilots are now predominately in the lead ALPA positions so the it is more than likely that the same people would filter to the top here. We are not ALPA Leadership. If we end up not liking them, the same will be true for DPA in a few cycles.

slowplay

Is this insightful or inciteful?

In either case, I hope you back your words with action. Giddyup.

ALPA's not a lawn service. If you somehow wind up being successful with DPA, it won't be either. But you can still have the courage of your keyboard!

Carl Spackler

Some very good and thought provoking comments.

I don't think it was the practicioners that failed with the scandals in the Catholic church regarding young boys. The leadership had the failings, and their leadership covered it up. Instead of admitting what had happened to the practicioners, leadership lied about it ever occuring, then admitted it only after being sued. It's ALPA leadership that fails when they say they will strongly support the 1500 hour rule, then they don't and make excuses as to why. It's ALPA leadership that fails when they say the will strongly fight for reducing fatigue in the new FTDT regs, then they sign off on increasing 2 pilot crew hours from 8 to 9 hours.

ALPA is not broken...it is shattered.

Carl