Superdad

You paint with too broad a stroke. When I got hired by the regional we had no jets. Should I have quit when we got them because you decided to trade scope for pay?

KC10 FATboy

Wow, this week for ALPA has not been good. First Lee Moak and now we find out that ALPA supports the lowering of flight time standards for airline pilots, which is an about face of what they proposed.

Carl Spackler

I've never told people what they should have done. I've only shared what I did. I do not accept current or former RJ guys that consider themselves totally blameless. And it's complete denial to think that continuing to fly RJ's for far less money than the majors isn't undercutting the profession and keeping you from ever joining a major.

Nothing broad about that brush.

Carl

Carl Spackler

It sure was. That one even surprised me.

Waiting now for one of the ALPA apologists to say that was ALPA's position all along. 3...2...1...

Carl

acl65pilot

Carl on a per passenger basis you get paid less that an RJ driver!

tsquare

So what, truck drivers get paid more per mile than we do... what's your point?

80ktsClamp

You have yet to offer suggestions on what route you would take in this current environment and how that monetarily compares to the regionals. That is where the disconnect is. You say what not to do while telling what you did in a completely different environment 30 years ago without going the additional step of understanding the current environment and progression opportunities.


I did not apply to any regional feeder that flew 70 seat RJ's except for ASA. Pinnacle flew a majority of 44 seat CRJs with a ratio to mainline aircraft of 50 seaters. I then saw the 44 seat RJ's then get allowed by mainline to be converted to all 50 seaters (making them more financially viable). Then I saw hub to hub flying get given up. Then, the Newco deal and allowing CRJ900's (effectively giving up the ghost on the baby 9's)... all while I'm pulling my hair out watching every scope give back make it a longer and longer shot to get hired at my dream job. NWA and DAL were the carriers that I wanted to go to above all else, but the outsourcing got so out of control that I had more or less given up the ghost and had switched focus to FDX or UPS.

Not a single part of any of that progression had anything to do with the pilots that worked at Pinnacle asking for scope givebacks, it all had to do with the gun held to the head in bullcrap process of chapter 11, ALPA saying we have to live to fight another day, and management brilliantly playing the game of outsourcing to squeeze mainline for every drop of blood they could.

It is a pipedream to think that any feeder operation is going to voluntarily give that flying back...as a result of our scope givebacks, the deadend lifers now have a much more liveable career and make up a much larger portion than they ever should have. The burden rides on us and us alone to recapture scope... I cannot emphasize that enough.

Carl Spackler

Yes...and on a seasonally adjusted basis, the sun never sets.

Carl

Carl Spackler

OK. In this environment...not 30 years ago...but in today's environment... I would join the military. You serve the nation, gain invaluable experience in life as well as flying and it's a little better monetarily (not that it should make a difference). I say that because only focusing on the monetary aspect would lead one to pick drug dealing as the best career option. Anyway, that's what I would do today.

I know you don't see RJ pilots as playing any role. I get that. Victims only. You're wrong, but I understand you think you're blameless.

You're probably correct that now the burden is totally on the majors. Too many guys are willing to take the risk to be one of the few chosen for the ever diminishing major slots. And if they're wrong, they'll just stay as lifers or move on to another career. No concern at all as to what their actions played in diminishing the majors.

Carl

80ktsClamp

Military wasn't really an option for me- I was 6 weeks premature when I was born and ended up with 20/400 uncorrected distance vision. My senior year in college when I already had 1500 hours of flight time was when I found out that they were starting to accept PRK in the Air Force. I immediately jumped on it, but it was a 2 year wait before I could start pilot training after the surgery, then 2 years of pilot training and a 10 year commitment.

Hindsight 20/20, not getting surgery OTS was the best move I've ever made, as much as I always dreamed of flying for the USAF prior to going to the airlines. We'll see how it turns out when I'm 60. Otherwise, I agree that the military is the most viable option today except for the now ultra long commitment. Just about might as well stay in for a career now.

That being said, what is your suggestion for a civilian pilot in this environment? What is the ideal routing now without undercutting wages? I want to see your education on the subject.




I will always agree that we tend to sell ourselves out to try to get the moonshot... it is a self perpetuating cycle and you're placing your bet on a round of poker (I refuse to compare it to roullete as there is skill involved and not just chance). I don't agree that RJ pilots are blameless, and I have never said that.

I don't care to play the blame game... which I think is why we get into it so much. I DO care to fix the problem and the only way it will be fixed is for us(mainline) to reel it back in by having leadership that understands this. I'm glad you see that it rests solely on our shoulders to fix this problem, wherever you think the blame of origination lies.