Retirement at age 70
09-05-2010, 06:18 AM
#31
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
I tend to agree with Florida Flyer. If they can pass the medical and pass the training/testing events, let them fly. I think it is crazy to force someone into retirement just because of their age. This is called discrimination, which is something that we as American citizens staunchly oppose! Whether you think it is selfish or not for someone to fly past 60 or 65, it is WRONG to discriminate on that basis.
Now consider this, 50 year old captain comes home to find his wife with the pool boy. She leaves him, takes half of everything, and he has now lost 15 years worth of earning/saving potential. He didn't want a divorce, but got stuck with it anyway. Are you saying that it is selfish of him to continue to work to try and salvage some semblance of a dignified retirement? Who is being selfish?
I also agree with Tuck, that the First Class medical is a joke. Make it a real exam and we would probably solve the movement problem existing within most major airlines.
Dynasty, did you ever think that some people actually enjoy their work? What's wrong with continuing to work if you still enjoy it? One of the reasons people die so quickly after they retire is the don't do anything anymore!
My father in law is a 73 year old retired Delta captain who, incidentally, retired at about 57 because he was ready to, but is in better shape then a lot of 60 year olds I have met. He has flown right seat with me on a few trips, and I learned more in those couple of hours flying with him then I had in 50 hours alone! Incidentally, that was AFTER I had an ATP.
FWIW, I am in my 40's and have an opportunity as a first year FO with a regional. If all the stars aligned and I got the "Dream" job with some major at some point, I might make it to the middle of the seniority list if the age was raised to 70. Would that make me greedy and selfish? We're not talking about the top earning wages here, and people 20 years younger then me above me on the seniority list. Someday, you will have to make a decision about retirement. Hopefully, somebody else won't make it for you.
Now consider this, 50 year old captain comes home to find his wife with the pool boy. She leaves him, takes half of everything, and he has now lost 15 years worth of earning/saving potential. He didn't want a divorce, but got stuck with it anyway. Are you saying that it is selfish of him to continue to work to try and salvage some semblance of a dignified retirement? Who is being selfish?
I also agree with Tuck, that the First Class medical is a joke. Make it a real exam and we would probably solve the movement problem existing within most major airlines.
Dynasty, did you ever think that some people actually enjoy their work? What's wrong with continuing to work if you still enjoy it? One of the reasons people die so quickly after they retire is the don't do anything anymore!
My father in law is a 73 year old retired Delta captain who, incidentally, retired at about 57 because he was ready to, but is in better shape then a lot of 60 year olds I have met. He has flown right seat with me on a few trips, and I learned more in those couple of hours flying with him then I had in 50 hours alone! Incidentally, that was AFTER I had an ATP.
FWIW, I am in my 40's and have an opportunity as a first year FO with a regional. If all the stars aligned and I got the "Dream" job with some major at some point, I might make it to the middle of the seniority list if the age was raised to 70. Would that make me greedy and selfish? We're not talking about the top earning wages here, and people 20 years younger then me above me on the seniority list. Someday, you will have to make a decision about retirement. Hopefully, somebody else won't make it for you.
09-05-2010, 06:29 AM
#32
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Johnso;
Just food for thought. Many guys are under water even with saving their entire careers, keeping the DAL-S payout etc. For many years the max a pilot could save in a 401K was 15K. These guys that are flying beyond 60 are doing it for the money so they can leave. Unlike many with frozen pensions, these guys cannot retire because they do not have enough money. It is not a level of selfishness, but poor planning, poor foresight, and crappy luck.
I know that if I had been one of them, I probably would have not been as agressive with my own savings plan outside of the airline. I also would have had my pension totally dumped except the 4700 or so a month from the pbgc. If I had three kids, and paid their college in full like most did from 2000-2005 when the lost it all, I would be broke. There are always a few that are in it because they are greedy, but many of the 60P guys that I fly with are not happy about the situation, but are working as much as they can so they can retire. I truly feel for these guys. They want to be with the wife and grand babies and not sitting there talking about contracts and scope with you.
We as the younger generation have their pitfalls to look at. All they had was guys retiring with multi-million dollar pensions.
Do I support an age 70? Nope not on your life, but being irked over 65 which happened Dec 13, 2007 is like trying to catch water that is well over a damn.
Just food for thought. Many guys are under water even with saving their entire careers, keeping the DAL-S payout etc. For many years the max a pilot could save in a 401K was 15K. These guys that are flying beyond 60 are doing it for the money so they can leave. Unlike many with frozen pensions, these guys cannot retire because they do not have enough money. It is not a level of selfishness, but poor planning, poor foresight, and crappy luck.
I know that if I had been one of them, I probably would have not been as agressive with my own savings plan outside of the airline. I also would have had my pension totally dumped except the 4700 or so a month from the pbgc. If I had three kids, and paid their college in full like most did from 2000-2005 when the lost it all, I would be broke. There are always a few that are in it because they are greedy, but many of the 60P guys that I fly with are not happy about the situation, but are working as much as they can so they can retire. I truly feel for these guys. They want to be with the wife and grand babies and not sitting there talking about contracts and scope with you.
We as the younger generation have their pitfalls to look at. All they had was guys retiring with multi-million dollar pensions.
Do I support an age 70? Nope not on your life, but being irked over 65 which happened Dec 13, 2007 is like trying to catch water that is well over a damn.
09-05-2010, 06:55 AM
#33
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
The secret is not a secret at all. It's common knowledge. Live well with in your means, so you have plenty of savings. It's called financial responsibility, and if more people in this country would have it then we wouldn't have gotten in our last recession to begin with. Don't buy a house you really can't afford.
Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!
09-05-2010, 07:00 AM
#34
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
It was your choice to get married. This has happened time and time again and yet, people still get married. I hear you on the management thing but I don't feel sorry for you if you get divorced....your chose to get married (and knew you could get hosed if divorced).
09-05-2010, 07:08 AM
#35
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Johnso;
Just food for thought. Many guys are under water even with saving their entire careers, keeping the DAL-S payout etc. For many years the max a pilot could save in a 401K was 15K. These guys that are flying beyond 60 are doing it for the money so they can leave. Unlike many with frozen pensions, these guys cannot retire because they do not have enough money. It is not a level of selfishness, but poor planning, poor foresight, and crappy luck.
I know that if I had been one of them, I probably would have not been as agressive with my own savings plan outside of the airline. I also would have had my pension totally dumped except the 4700 or so a month from the pbgc. If I had three kids, and paid their college in full like most did from 2000-2005 when the lost it all, I would be broke. There are always a few that are in it because they are greedy, but many of the 60P guys that I fly with are not happy about the situation, but are working as much as they can so they can retire. I truly feel for these guys. They want to be with the wife and grand babies and not sitting there talking about contracts and scope with you.
We as the younger generation have their pitfalls to look at. All they had was guys retiring with multi-million dollar pensions.
Do I support an age 70? Nope not on your life, but being irked over 65 which happened Dec 13, 2007 is like trying to catch water that is well over a damn.
Just food for thought. Many guys are under water even with saving their entire careers, keeping the DAL-S payout etc. For many years the max a pilot could save in a 401K was 15K. These guys that are flying beyond 60 are doing it for the money so they can leave. Unlike many with frozen pensions, these guys cannot retire because they do not have enough money. It is not a level of selfishness, but poor planning, poor foresight, and crappy luck.
I know that if I had been one of them, I probably would have not been as agressive with my own savings plan outside of the airline. I also would have had my pension totally dumped except the 4700 or so a month from the pbgc. If I had three kids, and paid their college in full like most did from 2000-2005 when the lost it all, I would be broke. There are always a few that are in it because they are greedy, but many of the 60P guys that I fly with are not happy about the situation, but are working as much as they can so they can retire. I truly feel for these guys. They want to be with the wife and grand babies and not sitting there talking about contracts and scope with you.
We as the younger generation have their pitfalls to look at. All they had was guys retiring with multi-million dollar pensions.
Do I support an age 70? Nope not on your life, but being irked over 65 which happened Dec 13, 2007 is like trying to catch water that is well over a damn.
Age 70 would be flat out ridiculous, & there is no excuse for it.
09-05-2010, 07:09 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
I'll vote for whoever makes it their main stance to bring the age back to 60.
Every pilot who voluntarily works past 60 now is forcing the pilots who follow them to work past 60 just to get to where they would've been originally. Age 65 (or 70) is allowing a completely selfish group of pilots spend more years at the top on the backs of all the pilots below them, while they spent their entire career benefiting from the retirements of those ahead of them at 60.
Who wants to work to 70 anyways? Not me! I'd rather not die from old age in a hotel, on a layover, or in an airline cockpit.
Maybe its time for an anti-Part 121 Age 60+ pilot movement. Single these people out and most importantly, those who pushed for the change. Sometimes it is hard to decide if ALPA is a union or an enemy. And to the 60+ers: your selfishness and inability to plan for the future is not my fault and I shouldn't have to pay for it.
Every pilot who voluntarily works past 60 now is forcing the pilots who follow them to work past 60 just to get to where they would've been originally. Age 65 (or 70) is allowing a completely selfish group of pilots spend more years at the top on the backs of all the pilots below them, while they spent their entire career benefiting from the retirements of those ahead of them at 60.
Who wants to work to 70 anyways? Not me! I'd rather not die from old age in a hotel, on a layover, or in an airline cockpit.
Maybe its time for an anti-Part 121 Age 60+ pilot movement. Single these people out and most importantly, those who pushed for the change. Sometimes it is hard to decide if ALPA is a union or an enemy. And to the 60+ers: your selfishness and inability to plan for the future is not my fault and I shouldn't have to pay for it.
I think that is the one of the main reasons it ever got raised to 65.
09-05-2010, 07:14 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: Doing what you do, for less.
Posts: 1,792
Sure all your retirements got screwed up, but pilots have been getting screwed since the dawn of time and will continue to get screwed until the last airliner ever touches down.
They response to being screwed by management shouldn't be to screw your fellow pilots. Sometimes you just have to plan ahead for the worst case scenario and accept the cards you have been dealt. Every younger pilot out there was dealt a really bad hand from all you 60+ers.
They response to being screwed by management shouldn't be to screw your fellow pilots. Sometimes you just have to plan ahead for the worst case scenario and accept the cards you have been dealt. Every younger pilot out there was dealt a really bad hand from all you 60+ers.
09-05-2010, 07:42 AM
#38
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,406
How much control/influence does alpa really have as far as stopping it? I was under the impression that 60---->65 was going to happen whether alpa/swapa, etc. liked it or not. I.E., it was more of a lobbying effort from AARP/Baby Boomers and the congressmen/senators representing them angling for re-election.
I'll admit there are 70 year olds who could pass a sim check, but I don't think there are many who could pass a "sim check" after a 0215 wake-up followed by a Wx and delay ridden 14 hour day...at some point the human body really does get old.
Actually I'll take age 70 on the condition that medical standards get changed to include rigid body-fat requirements...that has a direct correlation to sudden incapacitation.
09-05-2010, 07:44 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Position: 756 FO
Posts: 319
Here are Captain Rice's remarks to the Executive Board meeting this past week. Fast forward to 11:45 to see his statement on a mandatory retirement age increase. Notice that he clearly states "...but that is not a solution." It would be his opponent, the pusher of Age 65, who would be more likely to support an increase in the retirement age yet again.
http://alpatv.alpa.org/DesktopModule...96&portalId=14
http://alpatv.alpa.org/DesktopModule...96&portalId=14
I think more than worrying about age 70 every pilot should watch CA Rice's speech. This is a major issue (65/70) but the international front will be a challenge one to really worry about.
09-05-2010, 08:27 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: In front of my computer
Posts: 230
Ahhh if only marriage were so simple! Not the case in many states, best solution: PRE-NUMP! If she wont sign, show her the door. I don't want the government involved in my personal relationship, so why get 'married' and sing the papers; just asking for trouble.....
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