Retirement at age 70
09-05-2010, 01:26 AM
#21
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 62
Instead of arbitrarily picking an age to force retirement, I believe pilots should be able to continue practicing their chosen profession until such time that they can no longer do so safely. Whether this be through failing to meet minimum physical or proficiency stantards (i.e. fail an FAA medical or a series of training events), when one can no longer perform, that is when they should retire.
Every other profession essentially has this standard. Doctors or lawyers aren't forced into retirement at 65. Frankly, I'd prefer a 67 year old brain surgeon to operate on my head who has 40 year of experience and has performed thousands of procedures. And for all those who say skills deteriorate with age, a brain surgery is a heck of a lot more sensitive than flying a plane with an engine out down to mins. What one may lose in speed and a steady hand, one gains with experience.
And for all those who moan and groan that "well when I started flying, retirement age was 60 so it shoud be that way for everyone else for all time..." well...thats just ridiculous. If i were in public school in 1945, students were segregated by race...so should all schools be racially segregated for time immorial simply because those were the rules when I was in school? Obviously not. We as a nation have grown and recognized our collective shortcomings. The US Congress has addressed the fundamental unfairness of forcing a premature airline retirement at age 60, just as it had addressed the fundamental unfairness of racial segregation. The US Congress passed, and the President signed, the age 65 law. It is a step in the right direction, but I will not be happy until all arbitrary retirement ages are abolished. You can not compromise with what is right. Do not force competent, healthy pilots to retire at an arbitrary age, just as you would not arbitrarily force school children to segregate by race. It is time for us, as a pilot community, to move beyond our unfair biases of the past (forced retirement at an arbitrry age) and embrace a fair retirement solution (retiremet based on objective medical and proficiency standards, not arbitrary age)
Sincerely,
Florida Flyer
Author's Note: I am a third year CRJ FO who fully realizes that adoption of my pilot retirement plan would, in all probability, increase my time as an FO and my tenure at a regional airline. To me, this is a small price to pay for doing what is right. One should not assign a dollar value to doing the right thing. Even if my retirement policy results in me losing $1 million over the course of my career because I become "stuck" at my regional, it is still the right thing to do.
Every other profession essentially has this standard. Doctors or lawyers aren't forced into retirement at 65. Frankly, I'd prefer a 67 year old brain surgeon to operate on my head who has 40 year of experience and has performed thousands of procedures. And for all those who say skills deteriorate with age, a brain surgery is a heck of a lot more sensitive than flying a plane with an engine out down to mins. What one may lose in speed and a steady hand, one gains with experience.
And for all those who moan and groan that "well when I started flying, retirement age was 60 so it shoud be that way for everyone else for all time..." well...thats just ridiculous. If i were in public school in 1945, students were segregated by race...so should all schools be racially segregated for time immorial simply because those were the rules when I was in school? Obviously not. We as a nation have grown and recognized our collective shortcomings. The US Congress has addressed the fundamental unfairness of forcing a premature airline retirement at age 60, just as it had addressed the fundamental unfairness of racial segregation. The US Congress passed, and the President signed, the age 65 law. It is a step in the right direction, but I will not be happy until all arbitrary retirement ages are abolished. You can not compromise with what is right. Do not force competent, healthy pilots to retire at an arbitrary age, just as you would not arbitrarily force school children to segregate by race. It is time for us, as a pilot community, to move beyond our unfair biases of the past (forced retirement at an arbitrry age) and embrace a fair retirement solution (retiremet based on objective medical and proficiency standards, not arbitrary age)
Sincerely,
Florida Flyer
Author's Note: I am a third year CRJ FO who fully realizes that adoption of my pilot retirement plan would, in all probability, increase my time as an FO and my tenure at a regional airline. To me, this is a small price to pay for doing what is right. One should not assign a dollar value to doing the right thing. Even if my retirement policy results in me losing $1 million over the course of my career because I become "stuck" at my regional, it is still the right thing to do.
Last edited by Florida Flyer; 09-05-2010 at 01:33 AM. Reason: clarify third paragraph
09-05-2010, 04:23 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 103
The secret is not a secret at all. It's common knowledge. Live well with in your means, so you have plenty of savings. It's called financial responsibility, and if more people in this country would have it then we wouldn't have gotten in our last recession to begin with. Don't buy a house you really can't afford.
As far as raising the retirement age due to med advances, I don't really give a rats rear end whether someone can hold a 1st class med past 60 or not. You want to keep flying, go get a charter gig. Point is THEY benefited off of those that were required to retire at 60, and know they are benefiting from NOT having to retire at 60. Many of those people have full pensions, yet still hang out in the highest paying WB seats (AA 777 CA, NWA 744 CA, etc) PREVENTING those junior to them from getting a shot at those earnings before they turn 60. THAT is SELFISH.
BTW, a career with UAW is about as steady as being an Airline Pilot. Just take a survey in DTW.
As far as raising the retirement age due to med advances, I don't really give a rats rear end whether someone can hold a 1st class med past 60 or not. You want to keep flying, go get a charter gig. Point is THEY benefited off of those that were required to retire at 60, and know they are benefiting from NOT having to retire at 60. Many of those people have full pensions, yet still hang out in the highest paying WB seats (AA 777 CA, NWA 744 CA, etc) PREVENTING those junior to them from getting a shot at those earnings before they turn 60. THAT is SELFISH.
BTW, a career with UAW is about as steady as being an Airline Pilot. Just take a survey in DTW.
09-05-2010, 04:41 AM
#23
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
You must have the perfect life. What's the secret cowboy?
There is a few drivers out there who retired before 60 to save what was left of their retirement packages.
Selfish, I think not.
Regardless, retirement would have been increased at some stage due to advances in medical technology.
That's just my ********* talking. *********s are just like opinions, everybody has one.
As far as feeding off the payroll as you put it, it's ironic, pilots ***** about being underpaid in this day and age, but apparently having experience at the top of the ladder is not only unwanted, it is seen as feeding off the system instead working for a living. I'm sure that sitting next to you
is a delight.
You wanted a steady career, should've joined the UAW.
There is a few drivers out there who retired before 60 to save what was left of their retirement packages.
Selfish, I think not.
Regardless, retirement would have been increased at some stage due to advances in medical technology.
That's just my ********* talking. *********s are just like opinions, everybody has one.
As far as feeding off the payroll as you put it, it's ironic, pilots ***** about being underpaid in this day and age, but apparently having experience at the top of the ladder is not only unwanted, it is seen as feeding off the system instead working for a living. I'm sure that sitting next to you
is a delight.
You wanted a steady career, should've joined the UAW.
09-05-2010, 04:45 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Delta M88 A ATL
Posts: 383
Consider this, a 70 year old captain taking off at LGA in a blizzard with gusting winds, after a 1:30 taxi, and return to deice again, looses and engine at V1. Who will wind up going in the river ? The 70 year old captain or the 28 year old captain ? Experience is one thing to consider, but more importantly, who has the better reflex to abort the takeoff the quickest and avoiding a swim in the east river ? 
09-05-2010, 05:16 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MD11 FO
Posts: 1,126
09-05-2010, 05:19 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MD11 FO
Posts: 1,126
Instead of arbitrarily picking an age to force retirement, I believe pilots should be able to continue practicing their chosen profession until such time that they can no longer do so safely. Whether this be through failing to meet minimum physical or proficiency stantards (i.e. fail an FAA medical or a series of training events), when one can no longer perform, that is when they should retire.
Every other profession essentially has this standard. Doctors or lawyers aren't forced into retirement at 65. Frankly, I'd prefer a 67 year old brain surgeon to operate on my head who has 40 year of experience and has performed thousands of procedures. And for all those who say skills deteriorate with age, a brain surgery is a heck of a lot more sensitive than flying a plane with an engine out down to mins. What one may lose in speed and a steady hand, one gains with experience.
And for all those who moan and groan that "well when I started flying, retirement age was 60 so it shoud be that way for everyone else for all time..." well...thats just ridiculous. If i were in public school in 1945, students were segregated by race...so should all schools be racially segregated for time immorial simply because those were the rules when I was in school? Obviously not. We as a nation have grown and recognized our collective shortcomings. The US Congress has addressed the fundamental unfairness of forcing a premature airline retirement at age 60, just as it had addressed the fundamental unfairness of racial segregation. The US Congress passed, and the President signed, the age 65 law. It is a step in the right direction, but I will not be happy until all arbitrary retirement ages are abolished. You can not compromise with what is right. Do not force competent, healthy pilots to retire at an arbitrary age, just as you would not arbitrarily force school children to segregate by race. It is time for us, as a pilot community, to move beyond our unfair biases of the past (forced retirement at an arbitrry age) and embrace a fair retirement solution (retiremet based on objective medical and proficiency standards, not arbitrary age)
Sincerely,
Florida Flyer
Author's Note: I am a third year CRJ FO who fully realizes that adoption of my pilot retirement plan would, in all probability, increase my time as an FO and my tenure at a regional airline. To me, this is a small price to pay for doing what is right. One should not assign a dollar value to doing the right thing. Even if my retirement policy results in me losing $1 million over the course of my career because I become "stuck" at my regional, it is still the right thing to do.
Every other profession essentially has this standard. Doctors or lawyers aren't forced into retirement at 65. Frankly, I'd prefer a 67 year old brain surgeon to operate on my head who has 40 year of experience and has performed thousands of procedures. And for all those who say skills deteriorate with age, a brain surgery is a heck of a lot more sensitive than flying a plane with an engine out down to mins. What one may lose in speed and a steady hand, one gains with experience.
And for all those who moan and groan that "well when I started flying, retirement age was 60 so it shoud be that way for everyone else for all time..." well...thats just ridiculous. If i were in public school in 1945, students were segregated by race...so should all schools be racially segregated for time immorial simply because those were the rules when I was in school? Obviously not. We as a nation have grown and recognized our collective shortcomings. The US Congress has addressed the fundamental unfairness of forcing a premature airline retirement at age 60, just as it had addressed the fundamental unfairness of racial segregation. The US Congress passed, and the President signed, the age 65 law. It is a step in the right direction, but I will not be happy until all arbitrary retirement ages are abolished. You can not compromise with what is right. Do not force competent, healthy pilots to retire at an arbitrary age, just as you would not arbitrarily force school children to segregate by race. It is time for us, as a pilot community, to move beyond our unfair biases of the past (forced retirement at an arbitrry age) and embrace a fair retirement solution (retiremet based on objective medical and proficiency standards, not arbitrary age)
Sincerely,
Florida Flyer
Author's Note: I am a third year CRJ FO who fully realizes that adoption of my pilot retirement plan would, in all probability, increase my time as an FO and my tenure at a regional airline. To me, this is a small price to pay for doing what is right. One should not assign a dollar value to doing the right thing. Even if my retirement policy results in me losing $1 million over the course of my career because I become "stuck" at my regional, it is still the right thing to do.
09-05-2010, 05:36 AM
#27
Retired
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: whale wrangler
Posts: 3,527
Oh Boy! Here we go again ,personally I liked the age 60 rule due to the fact that it did give those behind the chance to move up .
Whatever happened to enjoying ones retirement ?
You either work to live or live to work , the choice is up to you in the long run .
Whatever happened to enjoying ones retirement ?
You either work to live or live to work , the choice is up to you in the long run .
09-05-2010, 05:56 AM
#28
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Last edited by johnso29; 09-05-2010 at 06:09 AM.
09-05-2010, 06:04 AM
#29
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Instead of arbitrarily picking an age to force retirement, I believe pilots should be able to continue practicing their chosen profession until such time that they can no longer do so safely. Whether this be through failing to meet minimum physical or proficiency stantards (i.e. fail an FAA medical or a series of training events), when one can no longer perform, that is when they should retire.
Every other profession essentially has this standard. Doctors or lawyers aren't forced into retirement at 65. Frankly, I'd prefer a 67 year old brain surgeon to operate on my head who has 40 year of experience and has performed thousands of procedures. And for all those who say skills deteriorate with age, a brain surgery is a heck of a lot more sensitive than flying a plane with an engine out down to mins. What one may lose in speed and a steady hand, one gains with experience.
And for all those who moan and groan that "well when I started flying, retirement age was 60 so it shoud be that way for everyone else for all time..." well...thats just ridiculous. If i were in public school in 1945, students were segregated by race...so should all schools be racially segregated for time immorial simply because those were the rules when I was in school? Obviously not. We as a nation have grown and recognized our collective shortcomings. The US Congress has addressed the fundamental unfairness of forcing a premature airline retirement at age 60, just as it had addressed the fundamental unfairness of racial segregation. The US Congress passed, and the President signed, the age 65 law. It is a step in the right direction, but I will not be happy until all arbitrary retirement ages are abolished. You can not compromise with what is right. Do not force competent, healthy pilots to retire at an arbitrary age, just as you would not arbitrarily force school children to segregate by race. It is time for us, as a pilot community, to move beyond our unfair biases of the past (forced retirement at an arbitrry age) and embrace a fair retirement solution (retiremet based on objective medical and proficiency standards, not arbitrary age)
Sincerely,
Florida Flyer
Author's Note: I am a third year CRJ FO who fully realizes that adoption of my pilot retirement plan would, in all probability, increase my time as an FO and my tenure at a regional airline. To me, this is a small price to pay for doing what is right. One should not assign a dollar value to doing the right thing. Even if my retirement policy results in me losing $1 million over the course of my career because I become "stuck" at my regional, it is still the right thing to do.
Every other profession essentially has this standard. Doctors or lawyers aren't forced into retirement at 65. Frankly, I'd prefer a 67 year old brain surgeon to operate on my head who has 40 year of experience and has performed thousands of procedures. And for all those who say skills deteriorate with age, a brain surgery is a heck of a lot more sensitive than flying a plane with an engine out down to mins. What one may lose in speed and a steady hand, one gains with experience.
And for all those who moan and groan that "well when I started flying, retirement age was 60 so it shoud be that way for everyone else for all time..." well...thats just ridiculous. If i were in public school in 1945, students were segregated by race...so should all schools be racially segregated for time immorial simply because those were the rules when I was in school? Obviously not. We as a nation have grown and recognized our collective shortcomings. The US Congress has addressed the fundamental unfairness of forcing a premature airline retirement at age 60, just as it had addressed the fundamental unfairness of racial segregation. The US Congress passed, and the President signed, the age 65 law. It is a step in the right direction, but I will not be happy until all arbitrary retirement ages are abolished. You can not compromise with what is right. Do not force competent, healthy pilots to retire at an arbitrary age, just as you would not arbitrarily force school children to segregate by race. It is time for us, as a pilot community, to move beyond our unfair biases of the past (forced retirement at an arbitrry age) and embrace a fair retirement solution (retiremet based on objective medical and proficiency standards, not arbitrary age)
Sincerely,
Florida Flyer
Author's Note: I am a third year CRJ FO who fully realizes that adoption of my pilot retirement plan would, in all probability, increase my time as an FO and my tenure at a regional airline. To me, this is a small price to pay for doing what is right. One should not assign a dollar value to doing the right thing. Even if my retirement policy results in me losing $1 million over the course of my career because I become "stuck" at my regional, it is still the right thing to do.
Plus, a 67 year old brain surgeon with 40 years of experience can leave one job & demand equal/more pay then the job he left. We as pilots can not do this & therefore rely quite a bit on mandatory retirement to advance our career earnings. The only way your idea may work is a National Seniority list.
09-05-2010, 06:08 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: 737 Left
Posts: 1,827
I tend to agree with Florida Flyer. If they can pass the medical and pass the training/testing events, let them fly. I think it is crazy to force someone into retirement just because of their age. This is called discrimination, which is something that we as American citizens staunchly oppose! Whether you think it is selfish or not for someone to fly past 60 or 65, it is WRONG to discriminate on that basis.
Now consider this, 50 year old captain comes home to find his wife with the pool boy. She leaves him, takes half of everything, and he has now lost 15 years worth of earning/saving potential. He didn't want a divorce, but got stuck with it anyway. Are you saying that it is selfish of him to continue to work to try and salvage some semblance of a dignified retirement? Who is being selfish?
I also agree with Tuck, that the First Class medical is a joke. Make it a real exam and we would probably solve the movement problem existing within most major airlines.
Dynasty, did you ever think that some people actually enjoy their work? What's wrong with continuing to work if you still enjoy it? One of the reasons people die so quickly after they retire is the don't do anything anymore!
My father in law is a 73 year old retired Delta captain who, incidentally, retired at about 57 because he was ready to, but is in better shape then a lot of 60 year olds I have met. He has flown right seat with me on a few trips, and I learned more in those couple of hours flying with him then I had in 50 hours alone! Incidentally, that was AFTER I had an ATP.
FWIW, I am in my 40's and have an opportunity as a first year FO with a regional. If all the stars aligned and I got the "Dream" job with some major at some point, I might make it to the middle of the seniority list if the age was raised to 70. Would that make me greedy and selfish? We're not talking about the top earning wages here, and people 20 years younger then me above me on the seniority list. Someday, you will have to make a decision about retirement. Hopefully, somebody else won't make it for you.
Now consider this, 50 year old captain comes home to find his wife with the pool boy. She leaves him, takes half of everything, and he has now lost 15 years worth of earning/saving potential. He didn't want a divorce, but got stuck with it anyway. Are you saying that it is selfish of him to continue to work to try and salvage some semblance of a dignified retirement? Who is being selfish?
I also agree with Tuck, that the First Class medical is a joke. Make it a real exam and we would probably solve the movement problem existing within most major airlines.
Dynasty, did you ever think that some people actually enjoy their work? What's wrong with continuing to work if you still enjoy it? One of the reasons people die so quickly after they retire is the don't do anything anymore!
My father in law is a 73 year old retired Delta captain who, incidentally, retired at about 57 because he was ready to, but is in better shape then a lot of 60 year olds I have met. He has flown right seat with me on a few trips, and I learned more in those couple of hours flying with him then I had in 50 hours alone! Incidentally, that was AFTER I had an ATP.
FWIW, I am in my 40's and have an opportunity as a first year FO with a regional. If all the stars aligned and I got the "Dream" job with some major at some point, I might make it to the middle of the seniority list if the age was raised to 70. Would that make me greedy and selfish? We're not talking about the top earning wages here, and people 20 years younger then me above me on the seniority list. Someday, you will have to make a decision about retirement. Hopefully, somebody else won't make it for you.
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