Flyby1206

It is much more realistic for AA to be flying a 100 seater than it is for Eagle to fly 100 seaters, like it or not.

I dont see it as APA "giving up" anything in order to fly a E190/CSeries aircraft, but I do think the APA leadership and membership are slowly coming to terms with the realities of the industry as a whole, not just what Eagle is doing. We(Eagle) arent the threat anymore, and APA wants to be competitive with the global airline industry so that they can continue to grow.

Being realistic I could see traditional pensions disappearing for future newhires at AA. AA pilots getting a few small 3-8% payraises over the course of their contract. A large order of E190s/CSeries flown by APA could support payrates on the same scale as jetblue if not +5-10% higher since there are no pensions for newhires. APA scope wont remain as it is today, and Eagle wont be the major feed provider it is today. Lots more 70seat jets flown under AA Connection colors, but in a ratio to the number of E190s brought online at AA. Eagle divested, shrunk, becoming a ORD/DFW carrier flying through the midwest providing feed for AA while AA Connection contracts carriers to provide feed in JFK/LGA, MIA, LAX.

Oldfreightdawg

I'd save myself the time of buying the stock and just throw cash in fireplace instead.

I'm just repeating what was said by the new VP of flight, he has been making the rounds from base to base. I have yet to talk with anybody that doubts his sincerity, even the most hardened unionist. "Flown by AA pilots" means the company will not try negotiate scope relief to let AE fly them. Besides, it's well known that APA will not bend on scope, and like EXTW said, we already own them.

Whether AA buys any airplanes anytime soon remains to be seen, but the school house in DFW is ramping up and it's busier than I've seen in a long time. It can't be only because of 250 recalls, those guys will have to fly something, and on November 1, AA announced a whopping 3 retirements, so the over age 60 guys are not going away anytime soon.

Oldfreightdawg

Pensions for new hires is already on the table, as well as other goodies for the company, so long as they commit to bringing back our furloughees and doing some organic growth. What a pay proposal from AA would look like is anybody's guess because they have yet to produce one.

The local APA boss descibes APA's wants as "LUV" money, I'd like to think we could get close to that.

buddies8

APA has to get of the kick of Eagle. Eagle may be a very small problem to APA but not the most important one. AA has now immunity to align everything with BA/IB/JAL. Interline agreements with West Jet and Jet blue. From Canada to the Caribbean, from East to West coast interline agreements. Yes they are only interline and not code share, the difference is in code share it would show up as an AA flight also, now it just shows a connection to and from AA. If I was APA, that is were I would look at and keep my focus on.

Whether AA flies anything in the 100 seat + category type aircraft that they already dont fly, that will be negotiated. But APA will give up items to get that aircraft on AA property.
I can see AA/APA doing that but as always, every time scope was tightened regarding Eagle, it was always relaxed. You will get an agreement to fly an E190/195 or C Series aircraft but APA will give up on scope for a new max weight of about 95000 lbs and max seating arrangement of about 78.
Now as APA, I would not want to many American Connections because that money paid to those companies is gone once the payment is made, but when AE gets paid by AA the money is placed in an AMR account, the money comes back to the mother ship.
AE also serves another function within the halls of AMR that American Connections can not, they launder money, AE buys everything from AA at any cost dictated by AA and that includes facilities, fuel, toilet paper, blankets etc;. These items go back and forth in the same warehouse, as they move there cost increases, now AMR has a high cost item and is able to show a loss.
For 20 years the only thing APA has done is limit AE and maybe justified, but the only growth AA has done in the last 20 years was when B scale was brought on the property.
Growth at AA without a bankruptcy or B scale pay at AA is not going to happen.

Oldfreightdawg

Okay. AMR is pretty far away from BK, even so new laws since the NWA/DAL BK make it more difficult for AMR to hang up their pension obligations, unless it's chapter 7--total liquidation (which is also possible).

There is 465 guys over 65, and any movement due to attrition is still 24 months away, if AMR is not planning any growth, then what do you suppose they're going to do with 250 plus recalls?

I don't know, maybe your right and as soon as they get back they will be furloughed again and all that money spent on training will have been wasted. Stranger things have happened.

OR: after this next recall class, AA has to start bringing over the 400 plus AE guys that were scheduled to flow up. The first 180 have to come. Maybe AMR will bring over a ton of AE guys over the next year, and then furlough everyone again, that way AMR can get rid of the most senior and expensive pilots at AE since AE guys can't flow back to AE.

X Rated

Seems to me that Eagle IS the B-Scale...just dressed differently.

X

eaglefly

Unless you were at the LAX meeting, how do you know what Hale said ?

So, the interview regarding the C-series was specifically about AA fleet issues, so Arpeys answer WAS indeed focused on AA.

buddies8

AE was C scale and if AE is the B scale now then if I was an AA pilot I would shut up before they get back again.
if he (Arpey) did not state it specifically for AA then he is open to where it goes.
Any one that has been at AMR for any time can tell you that even in writing does not mean AMR/AA would not try to get around it. Since it is not in writing, guaranteeing anything to anyone, you folks can sit there and hold your breaths until it comes. You are all senior so I win.
APA does not even have the threat of a strike, since the arbitrator has put off scheduling any meetings for almost a year. Negotiations are going on without NMB guidance. So unless AMR is a benevolent organization then APA will get what it wants. Since AMR is not a benevolent organization, I would expect APA to give up on a few important issues.

But the only thing AA pilots have is to beat on is AE. More power to you

buddies8

I think that all this hiring is that the airlines have been told ahead of time that the new FTDT rules will be going into effect and everyone is hiring to meet whatever staffing requirement will be. It is funny that all airlines (almost) are recalling or planning on hiring in 2011.

I know, airlines being pro-active and hire before they run short.

aa73

This is poor speculation on your part. AA had 86 seat Fokker 100s flown by mainline pilots at green book rates as recently as 2003. A 100 seat jet ALREADY has a pay rate in the green book, and despite your fear grenades, ANY flying over 50 seats WILL end up flown by AA pilots, no questions asked, and nothing given up.

Regarding your growth statement, that's another fable of yours. AA NEEDS to grow REGARDLESS of our pay rates or anything else. They have no choice. They have been backed into a corner and MUST react by growing. However - management loves to trick pilots into thinking that growth isn't possible without givebacks. B.S!!! Do you remember back in '97 when management threatened to not buy 777s if we didn't cave on their demands? Guess what, we didn't cave, and we still got 777s. When they need something desperately, they will get it, although they will try to tie it to pilot concessions (carrot dangle.) They're doing that right now with 787 orders (contingent on the pilots signing a contract. Suck it, AMR.)

My speculation? At least 30% pay restoration, all furloughees recalled, major growth, aircraft orders (100 seaters flown by APA along with widebodies) fixed reserve/vacation/sick system, and NO PBS in exchange for more productivity - think monthly max up to 87 hours or so(vs the current 83 we have today.)

Growth and expansion WILL happen here, and we don't have to give up squat for it. Although they'd love for you to believe that.