AA Recall Rumor
08-15-2010, 06:19 AM
#131
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Once and for all, everyone listen up!!!!! Pilot salaries don't have a material effect on airline profitability. Also, pilot scope clauses don't have a material effect on airline profitability. Burn those statements into your brain and remember them for the rest of your career.
AA Captains (Narrowbody) earn less than $2.00 per ticket per hour of flight based on a 70% load factor. ($165/hour times 105 people on a 140 seat jet, plus 11% Bfund & 6% Afund, plus medical, vacation) That includes everything, salary, medical, retirement, vacation, sick leave,.... On a three hour flight, DFW-SAN, the Captain is pulling away about $6.00 per passenger for his entire compensation package. How much was that ticket plus bag fees?
If AMR decided to give APA absolutely everything they wanted (it''ll never happen) AMR would need to raise about an extra buck and a half per hour of ticketed flight. I expect pilot "Compensation" costs, not the peripheral crap, will need to rise between .75 and $1.00 per hour of ticket flight. They are getting 25 times that amount from bag fees alone!
AMR is not going bankrupt, not even close. Anyone who believes so is a fool and should quit their job as a pilot now to go sell AMWAY.
This past year, Jun 2009 to June 2010, AMR Decreased their net debt by $500,000,000 and increased their cash position by $2,200,000,000. That's a lot of zeros on the positive side of the balance sheet. Subtract their 359m, 344m, 505m, 11m losses over the last 4 quarters and the negative side of the balance sheet equals about 1,200,000,000. 2.7billion minus 1.2billion shows me that the AMR balance sheet IMPROVED to the tune of $1.5billion dollars over the last year when corporate travel was nonexistant!!!!!! What will happen if the economy recovers and businessmen travel again? (Is it a coincidence that AMR earned about $1.9 billion from bag fees last year?)
Couple these numbers with the ruling in the Frontier bankruptcy and you have your proof that AMR doesn't have any intention of filing Chapter 7. (Oh the Frontier ruling??? The judge ruled that the highest paid executive cannot have his total compensation package exceed 10 times the lowest paid Frontier employee. That equates to a maximum compensation package of $144,000 for the highest paid executive. Does anyone think Arpey or Horton will allow their salary to fall so low when their balance sheet is showing such improvement?)
AMR will eventually pay up as long as the unions don't crumble. How long that will take depends on the NMB and that depends on the nations economy.
AA Captains (Narrowbody) earn less than $2.00 per ticket per hour of flight based on a 70% load factor. ($165/hour times 105 people on a 140 seat jet, plus 11% Bfund & 6% Afund, plus medical, vacation) That includes everything, salary, medical, retirement, vacation, sick leave,.... On a three hour flight, DFW-SAN, the Captain is pulling away about $6.00 per passenger for his entire compensation package. How much was that ticket plus bag fees?
If AMR decided to give APA absolutely everything they wanted (it''ll never happen) AMR would need to raise about an extra buck and a half per hour of ticketed flight. I expect pilot "Compensation" costs, not the peripheral crap, will need to rise between .75 and $1.00 per hour of ticket flight. They are getting 25 times that amount from bag fees alone!
AMR is not going bankrupt, not even close. Anyone who believes so is a fool and should quit their job as a pilot now to go sell AMWAY.
This past year, Jun 2009 to June 2010, AMR Decreased their net debt by $500,000,000 and increased their cash position by $2,200,000,000. That's a lot of zeros on the positive side of the balance sheet. Subtract their 359m, 344m, 505m, 11m losses over the last 4 quarters and the negative side of the balance sheet equals about 1,200,000,000. 2.7billion minus 1.2billion shows me that the AMR balance sheet IMPROVED to the tune of $1.5billion dollars over the last year when corporate travel was nonexistant!!!!!! What will happen if the economy recovers and businessmen travel again? (Is it a coincidence that AMR earned about $1.9 billion from bag fees last year?)
Couple these numbers with the ruling in the Frontier bankruptcy and you have your proof that AMR doesn't have any intention of filing Chapter 7. (Oh the Frontier ruling??? The judge ruled that the highest paid executive cannot have his total compensation package exceed 10 times the lowest paid Frontier employee. That equates to a maximum compensation package of $144,000 for the highest paid executive. Does anyone think Arpey or Horton will allow their salary to fall so low when their balance sheet is showing such improvement?)
AMR will eventually pay up as long as the unions don't crumble. How long that will take depends on the NMB and that depends on the nations economy.
Most analysts agree.
AMR isn't going bankrupt, but if they just lay down and let all their labor groups write their own contracts and payrates, they'll get there sooner rather then later. Airline profit loss can swing 180 degrees by huge amounts in just a few short years. AMR isn't going to put mainline labor costs into RJ's and you can take that to the bank. They also cannot compete with a miniscule revenue stream from smaller catchment cities with only 47 jets, so it's either lose a little now or a lot in the future for mainline employees.
I suppose AA could reduce their fleet to 250 jets and stick with the 47 RJ's, but that seems more disasterous for mainline labor then any other alternative. Stop the growth with 150 737's for domestic ops and a hundred 767, 777 and 787's for International flying will still employ about 2500 pilots there. The top 2000 pilots could retire, those between 2000-3250 could have a captains seat, those between 3250-4500 an F/O seat and those below that, the shaft. AMR could just buy Jet Blue and invest their future with a domestic operation that could actually compete, while letting the dinosaur still exist, but ever shrinking.
Sure they stood firm on scope and crushed the RJ, but it doesn't sound like a very good deal for mainline pilots.
08-15-2010, 08:19 AM
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Missionary
Posts: 309
Eaglefly,
You obviously have a firm grasp on AMR's m.o., but what's the old saw about the definition of insanity, (i.e. "Doing the same things over & over expecting different results)?
So how many RJ's does SWA operate? Apples-to-oranges, right? Reading Flagship News, you wouldn't think so, since G.A. & crew seem to think SWA is a direct domestic rival. AMR needs to start thinking outside "the box". I would think APA would bargain on work rules to recapture SCOPE.
I'm really not trying to argue with you, I just think there ARE alternatives to doing business as usual. You CAN have a well compensated, generally happy employee group and still compete and grow...AMR just has to have the cojones to do it. (doubt it...FURP)
And TonyWilliams, we seem to have contrary opinions on most things, and this seems no different. IMO, UAL ALPA will eventually win on the Aer Lingus debacle, DAL will be forced to park some 76 seaters, and I'll make a bet with you...if CO pilots capitulate on 50 seat scope (post-merger), I'll buy you a steak dinner when you return from Lagos! (You'll probably need it)
You obviously have a firm grasp on AMR's m.o., but what's the old saw about the definition of insanity, (i.e. "Doing the same things over & over expecting different results)?
So how many RJ's does SWA operate? Apples-to-oranges, right? Reading Flagship News, you wouldn't think so, since G.A. & crew seem to think SWA is a direct domestic rival. AMR needs to start thinking outside "the box". I would think APA would bargain on work rules to recapture SCOPE.
I'm really not trying to argue with you, I just think there ARE alternatives to doing business as usual. You CAN have a well compensated, generally happy employee group and still compete and grow...AMR just has to have the cojones to do it. (doubt it...FURP)
And TonyWilliams, we seem to have contrary opinions on most things, and this seems no different. IMO, UAL ALPA will eventually win on the Aer Lingus debacle, DAL will be forced to park some 76 seaters, and I'll make a bet with you...if CO pilots capitulate on 50 seat scope (post-merger), I'll buy you a steak dinner when you return from Lagos! (You'll probably need it)
Last edited by NoStep; 08-15-2010 at 08:32 AM.
08-15-2010, 05:11 PM
#133
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Posts: 108
If eaglefly has a firm grasp of AMR's M.O. that's only because he is spouting the tired management mantra about "feed" that airline pilots have been sold for years. Sorry guy, many of us don't buy into your management sprouted lies anymore.
FEED isn't what you want me to believe it is, it's simply flying jobs outsourced to a lower cost unit. There are many reasons for this outsourcing but is within the realm of possibilities that the pilots groups in this country will regain control over this outsourcing. If they don't and your projections of continued stagnation and eventual bankruptcy materialize, I don't really care. I'm already stagnated and I don't expect anything from this company after I retire anyway. My retirement is planned for even with the potential bankruptcy (which IMHO will never happen, see previous post).
American Airlines pilots used to fly DC-3 aircraft, and after that DC-6's and B-111's. I think they can handle the controls of a 70 or 90 seat Embraer or even an ATR if need be. The line in the sand has been drawn, with your help. Your arguement further illustrated that the bottom two-thirds of the AA seniority list really has nothing to lose by standing firm on scope.
Also, the costs for other labor groups are not my problem either. That's managments job. You see, if I wanted to be paid like a managment wonk I woulda applied for a management position. AMR can work around the problem anyway they want as long as they put AA pilots in the cockpit seats. I don't care who they hire as Flight Attendants or ground personnel, that's between AMR and the other unions to work out. I'll ride the ship down if they want to continue to try to outsource my job. I'll collect what pay and benefits I can while the ship is floating and then I'll bail out. I have a parachute. Do you have yours?
FEED isn't what you want me to believe it is, it's simply flying jobs outsourced to a lower cost unit. There are many reasons for this outsourcing but is within the realm of possibilities that the pilots groups in this country will regain control over this outsourcing. If they don't and your projections of continued stagnation and eventual bankruptcy materialize, I don't really care. I'm already stagnated and I don't expect anything from this company after I retire anyway. My retirement is planned for even with the potential bankruptcy (which IMHO will never happen, see previous post).
American Airlines pilots used to fly DC-3 aircraft, and after that DC-6's and B-111's. I think they can handle the controls of a 70 or 90 seat Embraer or even an ATR if need be. The line in the sand has been drawn, with your help. Your arguement further illustrated that the bottom two-thirds of the AA seniority list really has nothing to lose by standing firm on scope.
Also, the costs for other labor groups are not my problem either. That's managments job. You see, if I wanted to be paid like a managment wonk I woulda applied for a management position. AMR can work around the problem anyway they want as long as they put AA pilots in the cockpit seats. I don't care who they hire as Flight Attendants or ground personnel, that's between AMR and the other unions to work out. I'll ride the ship down if they want to continue to try to outsource my job. I'll collect what pay and benefits I can while the ship is floating and then I'll bail out. I have a parachute. Do you have yours?
08-18-2010, 11:11 AM
#135
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
If eaglefly has a firm grasp of AMR's M.O. that's only because he is spouting the tired management mantra about "feed" that airline pilots have been sold for years. Sorry guy, many of us don't buy into your management sprouted lies anymore.
FEED isn't what you want me to believe it is, it's simply flying jobs outsourced to a lower cost unit. There are many reasons for this outsourcing but is within the realm of possibilities that the pilots groups in this country will regain control over this outsourcing. If they don't and your projections of continued stagnation and eventual bankruptcy materialize, I don't really care. I'm already stagnated and I don't expect anything from this company after I retire anyway. My retirement is planned for even with the potential bankruptcy (which IMHO will never happen, see previous post).
American Airlines pilots used to fly DC-3 aircraft, and after that DC-6's and B-111's. I think they can handle the controls of a 70 or 90 seat Embraer or even an ATR if need be. The line in the sand has been drawn, with your help. Your arguement further illustrated that the bottom two-thirds of the AA seniority list really has nothing to lose by standing firm on scope.
Also, the costs for other labor groups are not my problem either. That's managments job. You see, if I wanted to be paid like a managment wonk I woulda applied for a management position. AMR can work around the problem anyway they want as long as they put AA pilots in the cockpit seats. I don't care who they hire as Flight Attendants or ground personnel, that's between AMR and the other unions to work out. I'll ride the ship down if they want to continue to try to outsource my job. I'll collect what pay and benefits I can while the ship is floating and then I'll bail out. I have a parachute. Do you have yours?
FEED isn't what you want me to believe it is, it's simply flying jobs outsourced to a lower cost unit. There are many reasons for this outsourcing but is within the realm of possibilities that the pilots groups in this country will regain control over this outsourcing. If they don't and your projections of continued stagnation and eventual bankruptcy materialize, I don't really care. I'm already stagnated and I don't expect anything from this company after I retire anyway. My retirement is planned for even with the potential bankruptcy (which IMHO will never happen, see previous post).
American Airlines pilots used to fly DC-3 aircraft, and after that DC-6's and B-111's. I think they can handle the controls of a 70 or 90 seat Embraer or even an ATR if need be. The line in the sand has been drawn, with your help. Your arguement further illustrated that the bottom two-thirds of the AA seniority list really has nothing to lose by standing firm on scope.
Also, the costs for other labor groups are not my problem either. That's managments job. You see, if I wanted to be paid like a managment wonk I woulda applied for a management position. AMR can work around the problem anyway they want as long as they put AA pilots in the cockpit seats. I don't care who they hire as Flight Attendants or ground personnel, that's between AMR and the other unions to work out. I'll ride the ship down if they want to continue to try to outsource my job. I'll collect what pay and benefits I can while the ship is floating and then I'll bail out. I have a parachute. Do you have yours?
Go get'em tiger.
08-24-2010, 05:55 AM
#140
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: B-737
Posts: 392
I9C QFQ 639B99
23AUG10/0830
TO ALL COCKPIT CREWMEMBERS.....PAGE 2 OF 5
FOLLOWING ARE THE POSSIBLE DISPLACEMENTS FOR NOVEMBER 1, 2010
BOS....767I CA....767I FO DCA....NONE
DFW....777I FO....S80D FO LAX.... NONE
LGA....NONE MIA....NONE
ORD....777I FO....S80D FO SFO....S80D FO SLT....NONE
NEW BASE, AS DEFINED BY SEC 17.S, - NONE
NEW EQUIPMENT, AS DEFINED BY SEC 17.R, - NONE
**BE ADVISED THAT CREWMEMBERS BIDDING LATERALLY SAME
SEAT AND EQUIPMENT - TO A NEW EQUIPMENT BID STATUS INCUR
A 12 MONTH LOCK-IN. CREWMEMBERS BIDDING UP OR DOWN TO A NEW
BASE OR NEW EQUIPMENT BID STATUS WILL INCUR A 24 MONTH
LOCK-IN REGARDLESS OF THE NEW BASE/NEW EQUIPMENT LOCK-IN.
23AUG10/0830
TO ALL COCKPIT CREWMEMBERS.....PAGE 2 OF 5
FOLLOWING ARE THE POSSIBLE DISPLACEMENTS FOR NOVEMBER 1, 2010
BOS....767I CA....767I FO DCA....NONE
DFW....777I FO....S80D FO LAX.... NONE
LGA....NONE MIA....NONE
ORD....777I FO....S80D FO SFO....S80D FO SLT....NONE
NEW BASE, AS DEFINED BY SEC 17.S, - NONE
NEW EQUIPMENT, AS DEFINED BY SEC 17.R, - NONE
**BE ADVISED THAT CREWMEMBERS BIDDING LATERALLY SAME
SEAT AND EQUIPMENT - TO A NEW EQUIPMENT BID STATUS INCUR
A 12 MONTH LOCK-IN. CREWMEMBERS BIDDING UP OR DOWN TO A NEW
BASE OR NEW EQUIPMENT BID STATUS WILL INCUR A 24 MONTH
LOCK-IN REGARDLESS OF THE NEW BASE/NEW EQUIPMENT LOCK-IN.
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