Aloha

Amen Tony, ......
To argue whether it was wise to pass this law is as fruitful as finding the merits in [edit:delete politics] Whether we like it or not, it will be forced upon us. The questions are how will low time people make it to the "show" now? How will the industry be affected by the loss of a cheap labor force? What is to become of the regionals, as we know them? What now?

bcrosier

I'm sorry, but this is simply idiotic. By your logic, if there was a shortage of pilots willing to pay the airline to build time, there would still be a pilot shortage. I really don't even know how to communicate with you on this.

I'm pretty sure they don't have "250 hour wonders" in the medical field (as surgeons, before you explain to me how hospitals have orderlies or some other inane and irrelevant non-point). When you demonstrate to me that they have the equivalent of the "250 hour wonder" within physicians ranks, then I'm willing to consider your argument.

Get off of my high horse? How sanctimonious of you.

How about wanting to be offered ANY JOB AT ALL? I was unemployed and looking for ANY flying job, not just a pay raise. I was working as a gopher at my local target store with a 4 year degree and the flight time for the ATP, but I chose my integrity over what seemed like the quick path. I had the opportunity to cut a corner, and elected not to do so.

Back in the early 90's "Pay for training" was a popular scheme. You essentially paid for your initial training and in return, you got a job. It was looked down on by virtually anyone already in the industry. The problem was, there was almost no hiring at this point, and in the minds of some, it was the only chance to get a job making a little more than you did CFI'ing, get multi time, turbine time, so on and so forth.

According to your logic, I would have been justified in doing so, as I was going to spend the money to get my ATP anyhow, and it would have likely advanced my career much more rapidly. I chose not to do so because of the moral implications and baggage that came with that particular scheme. The bottom line was you were buying your job - those willing and able to bribe the airline by paying for something the airline should have provided got the job. I chose not to do so because I wanted to be able to look my colleagues in the eye and know that I had earned the right to sit in that seat.

I got my ATP on my own and continued to work as a gopher until I was able to get a job on my merits, not on my willingness to prostitute myself. I've been there, I've walked the walk - so quit attempting to impress me with how hard done by you are.

True enough. Unfortunately, if you can't recognize that a steady supply of 300 hour pilots willing fly for sub-par wages depresses pay and greatly limits the union's ability to negotiate better wages (Particularly at the regional level where improvement is most needed), then I don't believe it's possible to even reason with you. Ultimately, it hurts everyone in the profession, including those who take the jobs.

Honestly, I've never used the term "250 hour wonder", for reasons I've already enumerated. That said, if you are so sensitive to this little slight from your colleagues, I really question if you have the appropriate psychological makeup to work in this field effectively and enjoy it. I don't know you (other than your posts here), and I've certainly never flown with you, but if you get this wrapped around the axle about something so trivial I'm not sure how you'll react to being on the line with someone you just don't care for or get along with for an entire month.

Honestly, 80KtsClamp pretty well nailed how you are coming across in this thread...

esa17

The exact same way it was done before the regionals were hiring with 250 hours and a pulse.

There is no real magic to building time, it just takes an investment in ones self and not giving in to SJS. It's better for ALL of us in the long run.

asims33

:edited because im done arguing see next post:

NoStep

Dude...you're seriously equating pay-to-play places (Gulfstream, Carnival, etc.) with a regional hiring boom? Weren't these Regional airlines hiring with contracts written WAY before the boom? And your reference seems to be of that old hippie motto, "What if they threw a war, and nobody showed up?" regarding contract negotiations...wow!...your MEC must be comprised of unicorns who fart glitter & rainbows!! Ours can't even get the bidding program (E-maestro)worked out. I want some of what you're drinking!

Really, commuter/regional pay & QOL has always sucked! Probably sucked when you were hired, sucks now and will suck in the future.

You didn't want to pay-to-play...noone could blame you for that. You worked hard, got your ATP and if you got hired at just about any regional, yes...you did prostitute yourself!!!

Agree with you on 80ktsClamp...(sorry, Asims33, but you gotta' ease up and laugh at yourself)

bcrosier

I never said it was OK to degrade them, in fact I've said the opposite. What I am trying to do help you understand why so many people deeply resent low time pilots moving directly to airline right seats.

Well, actually I (and apparently a number of others) don't feel you have.

I believe I've demonstrated that not only would I not accept the job in that position, but that I declined the opportunity for a job when I was in an arguably worse position - no regular flying job at all. I read your previous reply before you deleted it, you cavalierly brushed this off since it was not exactly parallel with the current discussion, despite the overriding similarities. From this and many of your other posts on this site, it appears you are primarily interested in having others affirm your preconceived notions rather than learning something of viewpoints which do not match your own.

The types of people you are consistently arguing with are those who have been in this industry nearly if not longer than been alive and have accumulated thousands of hours of experience in many facets of the industry. Contrary to the impression you probably have of me, I don't think I'm Chuck Yeager or Norris, I don't think my stuff doesn't stink, and I know good and well I'm no vast repository of aviation knowledge. What I am is a line pilot who was fortunate enough to get the opportunity to fly turbine equipment when I was at a similar experience level to where you are now. So, believe it or not, I think I have a reasonably good handle on where you are coming from. The issue is the amazing degree of hubris you seem to consistently display (and again, I'm not the only one here who has noted this).

Again, you probably don't believe this, but I really wish you all of the success in the world in this career, but I have real concerns for how it's going to work out if you come across the same way in the cockpit as you do on this forum.

That said, I'm now going to try and take my own advice:

"Don't try and teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig."

bcrosier

I'm pointing out that I didn't want the stigma of being a pay-for-player and paid the price in delaying getting a full time gig. You want to hire on as a 300 hour pilot knowing that the general sentiment is you don't belong there, don't be upset when a stigma is attached to that - rightly or wrongly.

Now THAT's funny! I damn near spit my coke out all over my monitor!

You're making the mistake of assuming I was hired at a regional...

TonyWilliams

Ok, final post for this thread. Whether you got hired at 250 hours, or not, doesn't matter going forward (unless you're in a country other than the US). 1500 / ATP is now law. Whether the agency (ok, I guess I don't work there anymore, so the "FAA") finally gets around to the rule making process, then it might be time to start a new thread to discuss this. Over and out.

Tonne

Does anyone happen to know the details of the Safety Bill that was signed on Aug 2, regarding all 121 flight crewmembers obtaining an ATP?
My understanding is that in 3 years (from Aug 2) every flight crewmember has to hold an ATP, and not just have the required hours of an ATP to fly 121. Does anyone know for sure what the bill states?

jc23

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill...bill=h111-5900